- General Discussion Forum -

A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Dave Maupin
Carolina Jaguar Club *

forum user since 2005-04-12

 

Note: I chose the General Discussion Forum for my post hoping to stimulate a discussion among the general Membership. For me, this is an issue of fairness, of establishing a level playing field, not only for those Jaguar owners who choose to compete in Concours events but also for Jaguar owners across the six Regions of the JCNA.

I have enjoyed participating in JCNA Concours events for more than ten years. However, in recent years I have begun to question whether all Jaguars participating in Concours events across the six regions are held to the same strict JCNA judging standards. Other Concours participants with whom I have spoken have voiced the same question.

In order to satisfy my own curiosity, I decided to take a closer look at Concours event scoring. This led me to conduct a detailed review of Concours event scoring for the entire JCNA 2011 Concours season.

The purpose of this review was to determine the percentage of perfect scores awarded at each Concours event during the 2011 Concours season, both by Club and by Region. First, the number of cars judged was established for each event. Second, the number of perfect scores was tallied in the Champion, Driven, and Special Classes. Third, the percentage of perfect scores awarded was determined based on the number of cars judged. In addition, a percentage comparison was made of the perfect scores awarded in each of the six regions participating in 2011 JCNA Concours events. Finally, the number of perfect scores per event for each region was calculated. As a result of this review, the following information was ascertained:

·1,380 cars were judged across the six regions of the JCNA during the 2011 Concours season.
·136 perfect scores were awarded in the Champion, Driven, and Special Classes.
·10% of the cars judged received perfect scores. (Please refer to Table1of this review.)
·Using this percentage as a benchmark, a comparison was made between the perfect scores awarded in each region and the percentage of perfect scores awarded for the year across the six JCNA regions, the aforementioned benchmark percentage.
·The highest percentage of perfect scores awarded was in the South Central Region with 19%. Second was the Southwest Region with 12%. Third was the North Central Region with 9%. There was a tie for fourth between the South East and North East Regions with 8%. Fifth, and the lowest percentage of perfect scores awarded, was in the North West Region with 3%. (Please refer to Table 2 of this review.)
·The highest number of perfect scores awarded per event was also in the South Central Region with 5.1. There was a tie for second between the South West and North Central Regions with 2.9. Third was the North East Region with 2.3. Fourth was the South East Region with 2.1, and last was the North West Region with 1.0. (Please refer to Table 2 of this review.)

The above information raises several interesting questions. For example, are the “best” Jaguars to be found in the South Central and South West Regions? After all, 29 of 88, or 33%, of the cars judged at three South Central Region Concours events, were awarded perfect scores. And in the South West Region, 17 of 58, or 29%, of the cars judged at two South Central Region Concours events were also awarded perfect scores. It should be noted that both of these percentages are significantly higher than the benchmark average of 10% for the cars awarded perfect scores in all Concours events for 2011. By contrast, are the “worst” Jaguars to be found in the North West Region, where only 5 of 143, or 3%, of the cars judged received perfect scores?
There is no hard data that would support an affirmative response to either of the above questions. Rather, the more reasonable conclusion is that there is an equal distribution of “best” and “worst” Jaguars across the six regions of the JCNA, and that the variation in scores from region to region is more likely the result of a lack of uniformity in judging. For example, the average number of perfect scores awarded per event in the South Central Region was five times greater than those in the Northwest Region. This leads one to conclude that, while the score sheets may be objective, the judging may not be.

It is difficult not to be discouraged when cars from one or two regions are consistently awarded perfect scores while those in other regions are not. There is less of an incentive to compete when there is the perception that the playing field is not level from one region to another. Fewer cars competing can only result in a smaller judging field and more poorly attended Concours events.









































Dave Maupin
Taylorsville, NC
1976 XJ 5.3C


A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Dave Maupin
Carolina Jaguar Club *

forum user since 2005-04-12

 

In order to view the Tables clearly, you will need to right click your mouse, then select "view image" and click. You may also need to left click on the tables to enlarge them more.

Dave Maupin
Taylorsville, NC
1976 XJ 5.3C

A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

George Camp
Jaguar Society of South Carolina *

forum user since 2002-11-24

 

Dave your data and observations are well known. There is nothing in your data that JCNA and more importantly the JCRC has not been well aware and addressing for a very long time. Your conclusions are regionally based (not club based) and therefor inaccurate to some degree and unfair. Sometimes when the only tool a person has is a hammer everything looks like a nail and in this case you have drawn your conclusions based on your interpretations of the data. What you have also assumed is that there are not , and have not been conversations, letters, and directives toward the issue and a vast improvement . What you have also failed to include is all of the hard work the JCRC and JCNA has done over the years to "tighten" up things and this last AGM there were even further standards for judging that were approved and will be in force. When you began this "mission" in previous documents you stated you had ideas and suggestions to improve the JCNA system. To date the Chairman of the JCRC, the concours archivist, none of the officers of JCNA, have seen any suggestions from you to make things "better". I am equally sure that those hardworking judges that have given freely of their time to attend training and go out and do the best job they know how await your suggestions and not simply be painted with a broad brush.. While you have made it very clear that you do not wish to participate as a judge or even attend judges training you could still make a contribution by writing a judges guide for the XJ6/12C cars. They are unusual and a guide would help judges become more knowledgable hence a more acurate score. That is true of several cars in the JCNA and the Jaguar family--we need judging guides but as with all of the current guides they must be written by members who want to make a contribution. In looking over the end of year JCNA Concours standings one would expect to see (if your opinion/conclusion is accurate) a high percentage of Concours champions from one or two regions. What I find is a very well spread pattern from across the JCNA. Interesting! More interesting is that seems to be true for the Driven division also. Dave if you have interpreted the data correctly how can that be? I will end my reply simply this way. JCNA is not perfect--never will be. It is comprised of good intentioned folks that work to improve their cars and their clubs. That has never happened by sitting back and chucking rocks at the club or parts of the clubs. There are most def. times to chuck rocks. I have been known to throw a few but I always try to be fair and offer a suggestion or two. I am also prepared to respond positively when the next statement comes--"will you work on it". If you are discouraged that is too bad and perhaps you might turn that around and ensure your car is the best it can be--if there are better cars then work harder but at the end of the day scores are given on cars--not the person showing the car. To suggest that there are clubs that are actively inflating scores does a disservice to all. To suggest that more training and monotoring is in order--then you are right but that is an ongoing effort and will continue. By the way have you seen the newly released Chief Judges training CD? Just one more example of work being done to help the judges do their best.

JCRC SE
JCNA VP

A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Doug Dwyer
Jaguar Car Club of Victoria *

forum user since 2007-03-28

 

A couple thoughts.....

I've always suspected that climate/environment might play in. Up here in the NW cars take quite a beating in the rain....which often extends well into concours season. Much harder to keep a car up-to-snuff in the long term and certainly much harder on the day of the event itself if the participants drove through rain the day before..

It might be interesting to tabulate perfect scores against number of cars trailered to events versus number of cars driven. I dunno. Just a thought. Relative to this is might also be interesting to research how many almost-perfect scores....let's say 99.7-99.9 .... were the result of cleanliness issues only.

As George says, this has come up before. It's very easy to jump to conclusions....I know because I've done so myself on this very subject. However, there are SO many variables....other than bias...that could account for the higher scores. You research only touches the surface, I think.

Cheers
DD



Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR

A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

George Camp
Jaguar Society of South Carolina *

forum user since 2002-11-24

 

Doug what a good thought. Sort of like home field rules. One other factor now that you have opened the thought process is demography and clusters of folks that have the urge and means to follow their goals--and the time but I will not type the "R" word!

JCRC SE
JCNA VP

A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Peter Crespin
Nation s Capital Jaguar Owners Club *

forum user since 2010-05-20

 

I don't have a dog in this fight as I am a stranger to Concours events and always will be. However, I recognise thoughtfully-prepared data when I see them. Dave's piece read just like an academic paper and he is to be credited for that.

However, as I see it there are two fundamental issues to remember:

1) This is a hobby activity performed voluntarily by human beings. It would therefore be better studied in a qualitative manner befitting the 'softer' scientific disciplines like psychology, rather than be tackled with spurious precision to decimal-place accuracy as if we were studying a physical or even physiological problem with a finite number of accurately-measurable variables. It's just folks doing their best and you can't sensibly quantify that, although there's nothing wrong with looking for general trends or indicators of variablep erformance, provided you have accounted for all known variables or tried to balance the data sets.

2) If Concours judging was a professional quantitative and objective service on offer, with defined endpoints and warranted accuracy etc., then I could understand a 'buyer' of that service wishing to hold the providers to account. If I paid a machine shop to fit my pistons and the engine seized, I'd complain. If I paid an accountant for five copies of my accounts for a certain fee in a certain time and he delivered three, late, I would argue for either an upgrade of service to the level contracted, or a reduction in the fee to reflect the lower standard of deliverables supplied.

I'm not a concours person so may be wrong, but I assume entrants are realistic enough to know that this is a hobby activity, not life and death, and there is no warranty express or implied that everyone will be happy with the outcomes and judgements made? They are bound to be somewhat subjective and I would assume some variability between the same person on different events, let alone different people in different regions. And you'd have to examine a huge sample, surely, for randomised scatter of high or low marking to be reliably seen. Anything less is highly likely to exhibit anomalous results if you don't have the statistical power in the sample size to demonstrate an effect is not due to chance or biased sampling or observation?

In my experience, when you find someone who is really really knowledgeable and can spot flaws in a system, they are the ideal person to roll up their sleeves and deliver improvements as part of a team effort. People who work hard but not very smart can be problematic and people who are very smart but don't work hard are also not necessarily the most useful folks to have on the team. Decent folks trying their best is about as good as it gets, but it's never perfect.

Personally, the very idea of a 'perfect' car is an oxymoron anyhow. I know of a Triumph twin that was found still in its original crate but which was marked down on several points in a concours event, despite zero miles. That about says it all IMHO. Live and let live and put some miles on these fine cars.

Pete Crespin, Gaithersburg, MD, 66 D-type, 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12

A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Doug Dwyer
Jaguar Car Club of Victoria *

forum user since 2007-03-28

 

Pete,

I did the "concours thing" for several years and found it to be very fun. I was in competition only with myself....and that might be one of the reasons I enjoyed the experience.

Some people, though, are very competitive in nature, even in a hobby environment, and doubly so if they feel their efforts and expenditures are not being given due recognition in the form of high (or perfect) scores. Triply so if they feel that another person was over-rewarded while they were under-rewarded!

I don't know Dave so I certainly can't summarily include him in that group. I sense that he is simply uneasy and concerned about the scoring trends...the same trends that have be ongoing for years and have raised many an eyebrow.

What has always been missing from the discussion...and you pointed it out yourself....is an accounting of all the variables. If the matter was to ever be thoroughly researched Dave's information would be just the jumping off point, as he surely knows.

Further investigation....or "launching a probe into the matter" as our Congressmen love to say...would be a monumental task , which is probably why the the issue has never, as far as I know, gone beyond the grumble and harumph stage :-)

Cheers
DD



Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR

A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Peter Crespin
Nation s Capital Jaguar Owners Club *

forum user since 2010-05-20

 

Makes sense Doug and I wasn't getting at Dave, just trying from outside to perhaps inject a little realism as to what is actually feasible when human beings apply their brains to a hobby task.

For example, when you examine professional and highly-skilled people operating in their specific field of expertise you still get variability. So if you test a bunch of trained radiographers looking at the same X-ray, or the same radiographer looking at the same X-ray on two different days, you get variability. If the most highly-skilled people doing their professional best cannot deliver 100% consistent scoring, what chance have we got with hobbyist concours judges???

The only time you don't get variability is when you measure hard physical parameters using correctly-calibrated instrumentation. I suspect several criteria being judged at shows are not black & white criteria, even if most are. Even if they were, the measuring 'instruments' are fallible human beings with whom it's impossible to ensure 100% consistent knowledge and decision-making. Consequently, if you add partly-subjective criteria to variable skill levels, let alone emotional variability on the day, it would be headline news (or an indication of cheating) if you DID get totally consistent marking! S oif I'd been you competing mostly against myself for the fun of it and I didn't get the expected score improvements I would only be annoyed if it was the same judge both times and he was being seriously inconsistent in evaluating the parameters that had not changed between shows.

We can TRY to iron out the varibility in skills and attitude and subjectivity, which it seems is what's happening, but once you've done that you're left with level of variability that is going to get more and more annoying the finer you gauge the differences. So sure, if Judge X gave a car an 80% score and Judge Y gave it 60% or 99% then you'd think there's enough variability there that it could be reduced by consistent application of agreed judging criteria drawn up by an expert in that specific category of car. But if one judge awards 98% and another awards 99% is it realistic to think that a subjective scoring system is ever going to get more finely-tuned than that? Maybe the problem is with the whole scoring system being used to try and differentiate cars to a degree that is unfeasible, rather than the way scorers apply those criteria? Dunno - I don't take part.

Dave did try to look for trends and get a regional picture rather than deal in individual scores, so that makes total sense. I just wonder if the inherent variability of the measurements or the measuring schema are such as to invalidate any supposed differences being detected? I'm no statistician but I don't think you can ever hope to confirm a real effect if the confidence limits of the data points (car scores) are too wide - let alone the statistical probability of any observed effect being statistically significant and not just due to chance.

It may be like trying to check a cylinder bore with a ruler. The method is good enough to tell if it's a 3.8 or a 4.2, but it's unrealistic to think you can check bore ovality with it. Ditto measuring wheelbase with a micrometer - the instrument is fantastic but has to be matched to the task. Measuring something with genuine effort and reporting the results with apparent accuracy doesn't ensure a valid finding. There MAY be a serious issue that is easily remedied, but I doubt it. Which leaves the options of either deciding it's not that serious an issue, or knuckling down and expending major effort to fix it if you decide it is serious after all.

I can totally empathise with the frustration or the perceived unfairness - having been beaten by a few over-bored engines in my race days. But did I expect the club scrutineers to strip every engine to check nobody was gaining an unfair advantage over me? Of course not. I just got on with the hobby for the fun it gave me, knowing there were plenty of people who could outride me and outspend me or who made different personal risk assessments, so I was content with where I ended up. Evereyone's different I suppose.



Pete Crespin, Gaithersburg, MD, 66 D-type, 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12

A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

George Camp
Jaguar Society of South Carolina *

forum user since 2002-11-24

 

Peter JCNA has a council meeting scheduled at some place called Nicaea. We will get to the bottom of all of it there. On a more serious note I think you have captured the essence of the situation well.

JCRC SE
JCNA VP

A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

William R. Cooper
Carolina Jaguar Club *

forum user since 2004-02-17

 

Here's my 2 cents, FWIW. Dave has done a mind-boggling study and collection of data. A tip of the hat to him for that. What does it all mean? I'm not nearly smart enough to be able to factor in all of the variables to know. Judging cars in a Concours is way too subjective, no matter how objective one tries to be. I commend JCNA for making strides to level the playing field as much as humanly possible. Concours competitions are a lot of work to put on and a lot of work to prepare as a competitor. In the end, it should all be good fun and camaraderie. I look at judging like this: I put in hours and hours of work and money bringing cars back from neglect and disrepair to (maybe) better than new condition... the judging is a way of recognition for all of that, someone to say, "Wow, Cooper, nice job!" It also let's me know that next time I should polish that chrome seat adjuster a little more. ;>))

Now to my beef. I've talked to George about this already and I'm really okay with it, so don't take this as me dissing anyone personally or denigrating the fine work of the members and officers of the JCNA. It's truly a great group of folks. Anyway, my complaint is not so much in the judging, but in the inconsistent rules. I'm paraphrasing, but here goes. There is a rule which states that a car must have the equipment as it left the factory for the market intended. Well, except for leapers and 7" headlights. See, if enough people have those items on their cars in JCNA, well, the rule gets an exception. I imagine there was some debate when those exceptions were made, but at the end of the day, the majority won.
Along comes my XJ12-Coupe. At considerable expense, I was able to source a set of the much better-looking Euro chrome bumpers and all of the hardware need to mount them. I figured I'd be okay because there is also a rule which basically says if it's in the parts catalogue for that model year/ series, it's fair game. Not so fast, Cooper. Your car never left the factory that way. But Sir William intended it to be so, right? Well, yes, but them's the rules. See the inconsistency? The precedent has been set for cars to be equipped with stuff not intended for the North American market. I could understand if I showed up with a neon ground-effects package and spinners, but lots of XJ12-C's left Coventry with chrome bumpers. IMO, the rules need some tweaking.
At the end of the day, here's the deal with me. I run my own business, which keeps me really busy. Messing with my cars is a diversion, but I have very little free time. If I take some of that time to prepare a car for a Concours, give me some consistency with the rules! I love the JCNA and when (if) I retire, I'll give back more by working behind the scenes, maybe even becoming a judge. In the meantime, I won't enter my Coupe in competition, but will display and enjoy driving it.
I want to say as well that my association with JCNA has been very positive. All you guys have helped me learn so much about working on these cars. Doug, Pete, George, Dave, Gregory and a host of others have all taught me a bunch and given me the confidence to do things mechanically that I wouldn't do just 5 years ago.
Thanks for letting me rant!
All the best,
Bill Cooper
Carolina Jaguar Club
Fort Mill, SC

Bill Cooper,
1976 XJ12C
2013 XF SC

A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

George Camp
Jaguar Society of South Carolina *

forum user since 2002-11-24

 

Well said Bill. Your car is stunning but you should consider the special interest class instead of "display". I would remind you that this year display class does count toward the Fred horner award. As far as the "exceptions" as noted above there was indeed discussion but at the end of the day those were voted as "allowed". The dealer network sold leapers and a few other things that were put on the cars before the car had an owner but I digress. Hope to see you this year.

JCRC SE
JCNA VP

Re.: A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Alice King
JCNA *

forum user since 2011-10-31

 

Edited on 2012-05-02 10:13:32

Edited on 2012-05-02 10:11:46

To All Respondents: In keeping with the theme of Doug Dwyer's note to Pete on the 24th at 22:32. When Alice and I lived in CT, we were quite involved with JCSNE, as committee chair for touring and finding interesting beautiful country roads that would lead to an out of the way restaurant. We also were on the concours committee as gofers, doing whatever the club's experts needed. The club's chief judge is/was Hal Kritzman, all knowledgeable, and a wonderful Jaguarphile, he and his wife Jan hosting tech sessiions at his museum/garage showing those that attended how to restore, prepare for concours, slalom, etc. The club's president at the time was Dean Cusano, who's name can be seen in the slalom stat's, usually in the top 10. Needless to say, Alice and I rubbed shoulders with some of the best. Now to the point: Alice and I participated in many concours there, and one time a judge from JANE told me that the bow cover for our car had wrinkles at the corners, and it was a convertable. That, along with other minor penalties stood, but the car did a third place in driven class. The other times, we took a first, and did not place in the rest. We moved to the southeast, and entered the LOWCOUNTRY concours in Charleston, SC. Our judge identified the same wrinkles, then checked with the chief judge who said that it's to be expected with a convertable, so no penalty, and we have a third place in driven.

Both judges were objective, and the chief judge of each made his call. objectivity on a sliding scale!

And finally, and to us most important, several trophies along with pictures for the concours, trophies we have for winning rallyes as a pretty good team, but the memories that these items create are priceless. We are blessed with the travel, awards, commeraderie, dinners, chiding, helping another competitor with a hand held vacuum that was forgotten, etc, etc.

Ali's plate reads: "PURRFIK" which equals 100.00. Now in New England it is probably 99.00, in the Northwest, 98.50, in the Southeast, 99.25, and in the country of Texas, 99.99!!!

I really enjoy reading your opinions and observations, they help to keep me grounded, and that is not a LUCAS term.

Thanks for reading my 2 cents.

stew king


Aleeez Cat
1994 XJS CVT
Member-at-Large
owned:
1996 XJS CVT
1986 XJS HE
1979 TR-7
1978 XJ6


Re.: A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Daniel
Jaguar Owners Club, Inc. *

forum user since 2003-08-03

 

Edited on 2012-04-30 12:36:21

I have only been participating in Concours a little less than 10 years and a judge for 7 of those, but here are my thoughts:

Short of having a JCNA approved judges team running around the country judging all the shows, you can never have an even playing field no matter what you do. Different eyes see different things. Even within regions, it is well known there are "tough" clubs and "easy" clubs when it comes to Concours judging. We all get the same training, have access to the same guides, but take the same car and have it done by 3 different teams in different lights and different venues and you will get 3 different scores.

I personally have never awarded a 100 or 10 point score to any of the cars I have judged in 7 years. I do not believe a perfect car doesn't exist, but that I just haven't seen one yet. I have had a few 99.99s or 99.98s. Based on my personal experience, I do not believe some of the shows where we see a dozen or more perfect cars are judging to the same standards that I do. I don't consider myself tough either, I think I am fair.

I think the original poster did some nice analysis, I more or less agree with his conclusions, but I don't fault JCNA for it, there is only so much you can do with a national system of dozens of clubs with hundreds of judges all with different levels of experience.

Daniel Arsenault
Lakewood, CA
1994 XJ12 Morocco Red

Re.: A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Doug Dwyer
Jaguar Car Club of Victoria *

forum user since 2007-03-28

 

A car is concours perfect only as it rolls off the assembly line. It's all downhill from there :-)

In reality there are no perfect cars. Only perfect scores :-).

Setting aside bias or variable interpretation of rules, a 100 point JCNA score doesn't mean the car is perfect. It simply means the the defects were not found or noted in 15 minutes, or were in an area that isn't judged.

I'll add that the closer a car is to perfection, the more rigorously it will be judged. Whether or not that's "fair" opens up another discussion :-).

Cheers
DD

Cheers
DD

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR

Re.: A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Steve Kennedy
Rocky Mountain Jaguar Club *

forum user since 2005-02-20

 

Doug,
Cars fresh off the assembly line are far from perfect. They are fiithy. It may be a clean filthy but they are not 100 point cars.

Neither are the ones on the dealership showroom. We actually judged a brand new Jaguar on the show room floor and it came in about 99.2. Lots of cleaning in the engine and boot are to bring it up to concours standards. Also, one very interesting item, in the boot, around the very small emeregency tire, the paint was terrible. The primer was showing through. It only had one light coat of paint. Is this what we want to call a 100 piont car? Is this what we want to restore current day cars to in 20 years?

I highly recommend to all clubs that they hold one of their judges training sessions at their friendly dealers and judge a brand new Jaguar.

Steve Kennedy
Denver


Re.: A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Louis Kairys
Jaguar Car Club of North Florida *

forum user since 2006-04-02

 

Steve, I agree. I have often said that what we are looking for is the factory ideal, not what actually comes off the factory line. Not even cars costing ten times what a Jag costs come off the line clean. Any good judge given the time can find the the what's wrong with a car, it is just we don't have the time to find it. I know where the things that are wrong with my car, but I am not about to point them out to the judge. :-)

Lou -=≡£σu≡=-

Re.: A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Doug Dwyer
Jaguar Car Club of Victoria *

forum user since 2007-03-28

 

Steve, I was trying to be a bit facetious, thus the smiley, but ......

Agreed on the dirt.

As for paint quality on the spare wheel, well, if *all* the spare wheels for that model have very thin paint then I would consider it to be normal and correct.

If it was a factory slip-up....an exception....then I reckon it should be repaired to the level of quality intended by the factory....although now we're tampering with originality :-).

In some circles it's a sin to correct factory scews ups or even minimize sloppy workmanship. The standard is "as it left the factory". On some American cars, for instance, the engines were painted with some of the external bolt-ons already installed....meaning sloppy overspray on hoses, manifolds, etc. Looks like crap, but it's correct. The factory had no intention whatsover of doing a nicer job :-). Improving on their work is over-restoration!

Cheers
DD






Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR

Re.: A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Doug Dwyer
Jaguar Car Club of Victoria *

forum user since 2007-03-28

 

Louis, your posting illustrates why scoring will always have a subjective element! You score according to what a Jaguars could've been if they were built to "ideal" standards.

Others judge according to how they actually *were* built.

I'm not criticizing, mind you, just pointing out the differences.

If you look at enough Ser III sedans (for example) you'll soon discover that the overwhelming majority have a boot lid that is a bit proud on the left side, a rear door trailing edge proud on the left side, a rear bumper high on the left side, and rear larker lamps not parallel to the ground! Not ideal by any means, but, hey, that's exactly how they were built... far from ideal. Jaguar *could've* done much better but they elected not to.

Deduction, or no deduction ? :-)


Cheers
DD






Cheers
DD

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR

Re.: A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Louis Kairys
Jaguar Car Club of North Florida *

forum user since 2006-04-02

 

The point is how can a judge know how it came out of the factory. We were not there to see it. Thus we have to use a standard. If the owner has a document certifying the defect then we have to let it pass (see the rule book on this). It can get very complicated, but we do the best we can.

Lou -=≡£σu≡=-

Re.: A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Doug Dwyer
Jaguar Car Club of Victoria *

forum user since 2007-03-28

 

Louis, we can't know in every instance, of course. But if you look at enough of the same model over and over you start to get a very good idea of what all the non-documented defects are....thus eliminating the need to apply any other standard other than "that's how Jaguar built 'em" .


Cheers
DD

Doug Dwyer
Longview Washington USA
1995 XJR

Re.: A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Peter Crespin
Nation s Capital Jaguar Owners Club *

forum user since 2010-05-20

 

"If you look at enough Ser III sedans (for example) you'll soon discover that the overwhelming majority have a boot lid that is a bit proud on the left side, a rear door trailing edge proud on the left side, a rear bumper high on the left side, and rear larker lamps not parallel to the ground! Not ideal by any means, but, hey, that's exactly how they were built... far from ideal. Jaguar *could've* done much better but they elected not to.."

Excuse me! We built them that way because we heard Americans were getting heavier and also had a tendency to slam doors and boot lids :-)

Pete Crespin, Gaithersburg, MD, 66 D-type, 70 FHC, 79 S2 XJ12

Re.: A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Robert Sheridan
Jaguar Owners Club, Inc. *

forum user since 2008-07-19

 

Shades of Benny Hill... ; - )

1952 XK120
1986 XJS
Owned:
1933 SSI
1951, 1953 XK120
1956 MKI
1956 XK140
1964 MKX
1969 XKE

Re.: A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Steven Petry
Jaguar Association of Greater Indiana *

forum user since 2007-02-03

 

Edited on 2012-05-01 12:11:40

Just a few comments from the back seat, so to speak, as I never have and never will submit a car for judging.

Personally I wish more folks adopted Doug's attitude, he seems to understand that in car shows as in life, sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you. That's just inevitable. But what truly irritates me is the person that is judged and scored 99.8, but he just knows HIS car is a 100 pointer, and proceeds to get mean, nasty and vocal, and ruins the event for a dozen or more other folks. There ARE people who are a part of JCNA and local Clubs that enjoy OTHER aspects of the Clubs and are in many cases run off because of it. When that happens it really just leaves you with more of the former. I have no answer, but I wish there was some way to address situations like that.

To Steve's point, I've been with new car dealers since 1980, and what he says about new cars is basically true. But in my opinion, how they are built, is how they are built. To me, what he is advocating is creating a 'standard' for judging that didn't exist, HIS standard. The next guy may think his standard is crap because his car is literally still AS THEY BUILT IT. It just seems to feed or breed animosity.

Love the Club, love the folks, love the events........... I just wish there was a way to get some to lighten up! For everyone's sake.

My two cents.......... I'll go home now.

S Petry
'95 XJR
'97 XK8 Conv.

Re.: A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Steve Kennedy
Rocky Mountain Jaguar Club *

forum user since 2005-02-20

 

To Steven Petry
It is not "MY" standard that JCNA judges to, it is JC NA's standards. If you would like to propose rule changes to different standards, please submit them to the JCRC.
Steve Kennedy


Re.: A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Steven Petry
Jaguar Association of Greater Indiana *

forum user since 2007-02-03

 

Hi Steve,

I guess I have to ask you to excuse my poor wording. My reference to you was meant figuratively as an officer and former head of JCNA. I won't for a minute disparage you or the contributions you and Deanie continue to make to the Club. But your jousting response sort of makes my point. Nerves on this subject are always so raw.

I'm not positive, but I believe members of JCNA that do not competitively show cars are greater in number than those who do; especially when factoring in spouses and family. I am advocating a little more consideration of those folks, and a little more self policing by Club leaders to DISCOURAGE those that get ugly as a result of judging. To me their silence is deafening at times. I know judging competition is core to the Club, but there is more to life, and JCNA, than just the competition. I thought the point was [should be] to make things fun for everyone.

Thanks for letting me say my piece, I'm really only passing along thoughts of numerous people I have had conversations with over the years; some of which are no longer with the Club.

Cheers,



S Petry
'95 XJR
'97 XK8 Conv.

Re.: A Review of JCNA Concours Scoring for 2011

Ron Kuligowski
Carolina Jaguar Club *

forum user since 2006-03-08

 

My first thought is to say that a JCNA sanctioned concours is supposed to be a fun event and not draw out the competitive vitiol it sometimes does. Anyone who enters 2 or 3 or more in the season is competitive as well as proud of his or her vehicle. In a 15 minute judging period often with judges who are not as experienced the results can be controversial. Some may be very lenient, others might be super critical. Some entrants can be very irritable over their less than perfect score.

If the season begins or ends with an entrant facing perfect scores from a competitor in another region it can be very disappointing especially acknowledging the cost and time in attending a concours. We really want to encourage members to participate. I think the JCNA Concours Rules Committee has done an exceptional job at refining the process as well as preparing educational tools for judges and chief judges. Jim Morton from Carolina Jaguar needs to be recognized for his contributions.

All of this said, I saw a car at Western States with gold paint on engine parts originally cadmium plated. I doubt that all judges would have identifid that flaw. We all know what flaws our cars have and that includes cars just out of an expensive restoration. To be honest we have to admit a car driven to an event and used at all can't be prefect.

I have had success with my XJS since i first showed it in 1999. I admit to sensitivity when it didn't receive the highest score possible but i have corrected flaws as best as I could as identified from competition. Jim Morton told me this is supposed to be fun and it took me awhile to realize this for myself.

Ron Kuligowski
Carolina Jaguar Club

Ron Kuligowski
91 XJS V12 Collection Edition
Coupe