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Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

Robert Bridgeford
Jaguar Owners Club of Oregon *

forum user since 2010-01-04

 

A number of us in JOCO (Oregon club) are interested in a
rule change which would allow a Jaguar metal T from a
series III car to be legitimized in the concours rules as a
substitute for the plastic fuel T on Series 2 E-types.. Our
reasons are as follows:
1. Jaguar stopped supplying them in 1987 - NOS pieces are
now at least 24 years old and are fragile.
2. breaking means an instant very large fuel leak spraying all
over the engine compartment. This is a BIG safety issue.
3. There is precedent for this type of change - we are allowed
modern brakes and tires under current rules (wheelwells
unjudged)
4. JCNA , by requiring this piece, opens itself to considerable
exposure if a car burns.
5. There is suitable Jag piece available - both XKS and
Barrett refer the old number forward to a series III metal T.

This issue is well known in the E-type community. The Jag lovers
forum has seven posts in the past couple of years talking
about the hazards of using this part and advising against it.
The JCNA process for requesting a rule change recommends (on competition rules change form p 2 item 4) that it be discussed on relevent forums first, which is why I
am posting it here. Please comment and relay any
experiences you have had with the plastic T. Thanks for
your thoughtful reply!



Bob & Annie Bridgeford
69389 CAmp Polk Road Sisters OR 97759
1965 FHC E-type
1969 OTS E-type

Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

George Camp
Jaguar Society of South Carolina *

forum user since 2002-11-24

 

Well Bob your #4 will not hunt--JCNA does not require it--JCNA simply recognizes it as correct! No one is forcing you to do anything--if you want to use another part do so--take the deduct and drive on. Do not play with a heavy hand please--stick to the facts and while doing it please give an example of any car lost due to this. Sorry but I have too many miles and too many repairs of cars to go with this. What happens to the original and repro ones is folks try to put them on incorrectly. You MUST remove both Carbs and install the "T" then replace both carbs! The "T" s do not just "Explode. Further I think you are including improper plastic fuel line in that discussion. As far as the vendors go--they will make and stock only what we demand--if we settle for less they will provide less--there are hundreds of examples of this and the JCNA rules are responsible for a lot of it! I look forward to what others say.

JCRC SE
JCNA VP

Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

Robert Bridgeford
Jaguar Owners Club of Oregon *

forum user since 2010-01-04

 

I do not see the word "explode" in my post George. I see the word "fuel leak" , which is a substantial concern. I am not referring to the plastic fuel line which runs between the "olive" fitting and the fuel filter, but only to the cast plastic T, which fails by splitting at either the carbs or the metal insert on the bottom in the three examples I have personally seen this year. .

But this is an argument that shouldn't be reduced to "he said - she said". That is why I have posted it ( as it recommends in item #4). The evidence that we both seek is out there in the membership and is up to them to write in with their incidents. As I said, if there is no support for the change in the membership I will not pursue a rules change request. I think it is a bit early to make that decision based on two opinions.

BTW, the first two reponses that address the post on Jag love site are both in favor of the change, one from an active competitor and the other from a concours head judge in Ottowa.


Bob & Annie Bridgeford
69389 CAmp Polk Road Sisters OR 97759
1965 FHC E-type
1969 OTS E-type

Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

Stew Cleave
on Member *

forum user since 2002-11-12

 

Bob,
#1) Who are the people in JOCO you are referring to?
#2) If safety is an issue, why are you anywhere near a 40 year old car?
#3) I have an extra NOS tee in my spares stash and it is not at all fragile.
#4) I installed a NOS tee in strict accordance with George Camp's instructions at least 7 years ago and have not had a problem. Prior to consulting George, I split one during installation.
#5) If you really need a first place trophy that bad, I have about 30 of them, how many do you want?

Stew Cleave
'69 E-Type 2+2
'05 S-Type
and other LBC's

Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

Robert Bridgeford
Jaguar Owners Club of Oregon *

forum user since 2010-01-04

 

Hi Stew,

1)Bill thought that you were not interested in this discussion, but here you are! As you know, Bill and I are the people most involved, but we have talked with others who are in favor of change, and I will let them speak for themselves.
2 My 40 year old car is way safer than my 40 year old motorcycle!
3)Rumors have it that you will lend that T to me if I join your club.....
4)I just got off the phone with George, who says the same thing about installation. George also commented that the parts did age and get hard once they were exposed to the car environment. He also says he has one with thousands and thousands of miles that has been trouble free.
5) I have plenty of first place trophys that say Sunbeam Tiger on them - maybe we could trade a few!

Anyway, George and I are going to spend some time on the problems and see if we can find a resolution that involves joint action rather than rules change. But we still want input!

Bob & Annie Bridgeford
69389 CAmp Polk Road Sisters OR 97759
1965 FHC E-type
1969 OTS E-type

Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

William Brady
Jaguar Owners Club, Inc. *

forum user since 2004-02-15

 

Is this supposed to be open "friendly" discussion? Of course the plastic T is going to break and all by its-self!

Jaguar affectionado and etc.

Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

Bob S
Jaguar Affiliates Group of Michigan *

forum user since 2006-01-09

 

Hi All,
My opinion is as follows:
1) If you are concerned with the safety, by all means change it. Then take the deduction in champion class.
2) There are many of trailered cars that will have the original part.
3) Brakes caliper are not judged on any car in the Concour.
4) 3.8 L E-type are penalized if they do not have the correct Dunlop brake master cylinders and they are not available new today. The normal part suppliers do not have the proper rebuild kits for them. The main cup seal is wrong.

To me this is a personal decision to change it or not.

Bob S.

Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

Robert Bridgeford
Jaguar Owners Club of Oregon *

forum user since 2010-01-04

 

Bob S.

Two official requests were filed with the concours committee, mine and Bill Beatty's requesting a change. Requests must be filed 90 days ahead of the AGM meeting. The committee, in its wisdom, met immediatly, denied the requests. and notified both of us about a month ago. If suffilcient interest exists to have an election at the AGM, then the matter can go to the general membership.

Bob B.


Bob & Annie Bridgeford
69389 CAmp Polk Road Sisters OR 97759
1965 FHC E-type
1969 OTS E-type

Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

William Brady
Jaguar Owners Club, Inc. *

forum user since 2004-02-15

 

This is what makes judging and even having a car judged so frustrating. I have not fitted a plastic fuel tee in over 20 years using the metal one from the saloon. There has to be common sense here and clearly, if a part is no longer manufactured then a reasonable replacement/s should be acceptable by the people responsible for making such decisions. I agree totally with the position that plastic (any plastic) will eventually self distruct. The potential is increased in very cold climates!

Jaguar affectionado and etc.

Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

Jerry Liudahl
Jaguar Car Club of Victoria *

forum user since 2005-05-07

 

I fail to find the logic in insisting on using the plastic T. One can take it to the next extreme and insist that original belts, hoses and tires can be found if one looks hard enough and they should be used too. Why is there insistence on using a old part that could fail with dramatic consequences?

The spirit of competiton and common sense seem to be lost here. I have not read one vaild arguement here for continuing to use old fuel system parts instead of modern replacements. My .02 worth.

Jerry Liudahl
Old Irish Racing
www.oldirish.com
'02 XKR
'02 X-Type
'76 XJC

Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

Steve Saunders
South Florida Jaguar Club *

forum user since 2011-06-22

 

I hesitate to venture into these waters but here goes. Many of the parts peculiar to our vintage cars are being reproduced today by various vendors. it would seem to me that if the demand is there for the part that it will eventually be reproduced by somebody and then the discussion will become mute. those with a genuine concern for the potentially fragile nature of the use a plastic part for this application can use the metal part and take the deduction during competition judging and those seeking originality will purchase the correct part. I would note that modern fuel injection systems operate at exponentially higher pressures than our fuel systems and do not appear to have problem. all that said, I am coming to the end of a restoration and am in need of one of these storied fuel tees. If anyone is will to part with one I would be grateful

Steve Saunders
2008 xk
1998 xk8
1969 E

Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

Dick Cavicke
San Diego Jaguar Club *

forum user since 2002-11-13

 

JCNA concours challenge Entrants to research, prepare and present the judged portions of their cars in their original, factory-delivered configuration and condition. If a Judge identifies an item as non-original, i.e. not meeting the prescribed configuration, color or finish of the original, a non-authentic deduction is always appropriate. (The part may be new, it just has to look like the original.)

Some owners and restorers may be unable to find replacement parts that meet the required JCNA standard and other owners and restorers may choose to replace certain original parts with non-authentic items they believe to be safer or more durable. In such cases, if the parts are recognized and judged as non-authentic, they should receive a deduction.

Non-availability or even a circumstance where an original worn part may present a hazard, does not change the objective of presenting the car in its original factory-delivered configuration. In extreme instances, if some critical judged items are no longer available, otherwise “perfect” cars may score well below 100 points.

On the other hand, some dedicated entrants manage to find the rarest of parts and always present their cars fully outfitted in their original configurations. The authenticity of those cars must be acknowledged and given greater credit than cars presented with non-original substitute or non-authentic parts.

Many suppliers of vintage Jaguar parts have been very responsive to having scarce parts re-manufactured. Make your needs known… again.

Dick Cavicke
JCNA Chief Judge





Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

William Brady
Jaguar Owners Club, Inc. *

forum user since 2004-02-15

 

Dick, Were you stating your belief or just providing us with the rule? In the first place is this part available anywhere, and if so, is it made with plastic of the same chemical engredients. There are many suppliers producing copies of original parts and as i'm sure we have all discovered, they are not the same. I find that 90 pecent of aftermarket DO NOT FIT PROPERLY and have to be made to fit. These are cars and we are car people, our first focus should be on making sure the car runs as it was intended not just look good. Furthermore as was the case on many assembly lines, the goal was production figures, I know for a fact at Browns Lane one time there were times when the same cars were fitted with different parts due to shortages. Also, cars came to the factory service department that had problems the dealer could not rectify. On these cars, modified/re-engineered parts were fitted as prototypes. This often resulted in a car receiving a new major component- cylinder head, gearbox, engine etc. or simple things like wiper arms! It could be weeks before engineering would then get the order to upgrade the part which then, months later, would be entered into assembly! How can anyone say what is absolutely correct on simple production line cars (of any Type). These are cars, I find it ridiculous that we argue about such trivia while engines are not started at shows!

Jaguar affectionado and etc.

Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

Thomas E. Curren
Jaguar Club of Florida *

forum user since 2006-09-30

 

I was the engine judge at the Challenge Championship in Dublin this year. Series II E-types. There were correct fuel T's at the show, and the incorrect cars received a deduction. If you start with the fuel T's, it won't be long before owners will want other hard to get parts over-looked. If some one has spent the time and money to have a correct car, they should be recognized for their effort. If I recall right, there were no 100 point E-types at Dublin. I found zero cars with correct engine bays even if I didn't count the fuel T. Just my thoughts.
Cheers Tom

1961 E-types #90&53
1952 XK 120 OTS
1972 E-OTS

Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

Dick Cavicke
San Diego Jaguar Club *

forum user since 2002-11-13

 

William,
My comments were all based on the existing JCNA rules and their application.

Most concours focus primarily on the appearance of the vehicle. Some marques may require a token operation of the engine but, given the judging time limits and associated liability, JCNA considered but declined to include starting engines as part of the formal judging process.

A demonstration of basic vehicle function is assured by the requirement that all JCNA concours Entries be driven under their own power to their assigned parking locations.

Many parts being advertised and sold as "show correct" are not. The discriminating restorer or owner will recognize the difference and either return the item, make it correct or find a more qualified vendor.

Jaguar owners who want to improve their cars, may choose to make modifications. If some of those changes are to the engine, judged, and clearly not original to the model or authorized by Jaguar, they should receive deductions. However, JCNA has tried to accommodate both lightly and seriously modified Entries by including Driven Division and Special Division Class S3, respectively.

The factory was quite consistent in following-up with Service Bulletins and Part Number additions whenever anything was changed. If you or others have access to information documenting Browns Lane parts substitutions on specific models, please make that information known to the authors of the applicable Judging Guides. Every effort is being made to update the Judging Guides and inform owners and Judges of possible configuration differences.

The overall engine configuration must be correct for the model. JCNA does not require Entries to display matching engine or cylinder head numbers.

The JCNA Judge's Concours Rules Committee has tried to set and maintain meaningful standards.

Dick Cavicke
JCNA, Chief Judge






Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

George Camp
Jaguar Society of South Carolina *

forum user since 2002-11-24

 

At the AGM the fuel T was discussed in both the BOD meeting ( JCRC ruling upheld) and at the AGM. Old news! New news is that a short brief was given by Tony Lee of SNG Barratt on the project. He said "SNG is keen on producing this part and the drawings and a NOS part have been acquired." Further he mentioned the exact chemistry was being looked at to ensure the current mix of fuel would not be an issue.

The lesson here for all of us is that our vendors are responsive and are as interested in originality as we are. Please watch the forums for an update from either SNG or the JCRC!
Thanks

JCRC SE
JCNA VP

Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

George Camp
Jaguar Society of South Carolina *

forum user since 2002-11-24

 

As a follow up to this conversation you should find an image of the first of the fuel "T" (Jaguar part umber C28915) from the good folks at SNG Barratt. This is a first pre production run. The olive and fitting will be provided with the unit when available. While pricing is not yet finalized SNG is taking orders for the first run. This is a great example that our dedicated vendors listen and will work with us. It is also a clear example of why we should take this route and not simply ease the rules. If that approach is taken soon little will be produced. Hopefully this will put this issue to bed. Thanks to all who helped--some of you did even though you did not know you were! Smile.

JCRC SE
JCNA VP


Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

Dave Goodson
Jaguar Drivers and Restorers Club of NWA *

forum user since 2008-04-29

 

I don't know. A manufacturer finally decides to do one....good deal!
But, taking a metal one, filing it to the shape of the plastic one, and spray painting it to "look" like the plastic one should get a "pass" from all but the most knowledgeable judges, eh?

In other Marques, we have had to do such things until the time replacements were available.

Of course, bluff works.
I recall talking to a guy whose MK2 had the cowl to bonnet seal, instead of the short piece at the scuttle vent, went all the way across (he liked it better).
Judge said "That's supposed to be short!"
To which he responded, "You DO know this is a 1962 MK2, right?" and it passed muster.


Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

George Camp
Jaguar Society of South Carolina *

forum user since 2002-11-24

 

Dave the glass is HALF FULL! Not Half empty.

JCRC SE
JCNA VP

Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

Dave Goodson
Jaguar Drivers and Restorers Club of NWA *

forum user since 2008-04-29

 

With today's fuels, and what they do to the rubber bits, I can only imagine the effect on plastics. If it was mine, and I had to start it to move it off the trailer and onto the green, it would be metal.
I even dislike the plastic tubing used on MK2 fuel lines....mine is all landfill now.


Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

Robert Bridgeford
Jaguar Owners Club of Oregon *

forum user since 2010-01-04

 

Nice work George, Bob, Dick, Stew, et al !

Perhaps we could now reexamine how we get "new-old " parts manufactured when they become unavailable or unsafe ; It should not require an act of congress!

As I understand it the Concours committee now recommends individual members approach the vendors and ask for a special part or production run . I have had mixed results with this method, probably because I can only guarantee one sale!

The Sunbeam Tiger club out of Socal faced similar problems with an individual getting short production runs of rare parts. How do you motivate a supplier to make a one-off or short run of parts? The Tiger club begin a program where the club itself reached out to vendors. They bought a supply they stock, available to members and the trade. Other clubs use designated vendors and provide free advertising to those vendors through club publications, word of mouth and even endorsements. Sort of like saying "official supplier to her majesty Queen Victoria" on the side of your marmalade!

In effect, this is what happened finally with the fuel T. George approached SNG with the implied endorsement of JCNA and was able to get the part made. If there was a problem, it was with the lack of an internal process. If the option to simply say to members, "The committee sees that this part is no longer suitable, safe or available as the case may be" had existed it could have been exercised. Then JCNA could have requested someone manufacture it for the club members.

Instead we fell into a squabble about rules changes, mechanical competency, parenthood and motive. I would hope that we could move on to some sort of process or rule for dealing with this type of parts problem that will surely only get worse as time passes and the cars continue to age.

I look forward to an improved club response to questions like where do we get a series 1 radiator or Dunlop brake kits!



Bob & Annie Bridgeford
69389 CAmp Polk Road Sisters OR 97759
1965 FHC E-type
1969 OTS E-type

Plastic fuel T - time for a change?

Thomas E. Curren
Jaguar Club of Florida *

forum user since 2006-09-30

 

Dave, how do you get a metal fuel T to not leak where it attaches to the brass fuel pipe on the carb? That was the whole point of the plastic / nylon to be clamp-able. O-rings???

1961 E-types #90&53
1952 XK 120 OTS
1972 E-OTS


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