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2010-08-04 21:10:18 |
No crank. No fuel. No spark. No OBD2 code. DSC System / Gearbox Fault.
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TPRO
Jaguar Affiliates Group of Michigan *
forum user since
2010-08-04
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This is for a 2002 Jaguar X-Type. 2.5L V6. AWD. Automatic transmission. Gearbox Fault and DSC System Failure is stated on the console. The CEL and ABS are both on.
When the key is inserted, and put in the "ON" position, the starter does not engage for the engine to crank/turn over. Nothing happens.
The key that is used, the remote can lock/unlock/pop the trunk and etc.
Several OBD2 code readers have been used, none of them were able to pull a code. The port does have power, as the units light up when connected.
If power is crossed on the starter solenoid, the starter engages and the engine turns over. Starter fluid is used, but nothing happens.
A new battery has been used with and without a jump starter and battery charger set at 6 AMP. No change.
The TCM/TCU was pulled, and it appeared to have no moisture/water damage, although the vehicle has a cracked windshield. The TCM has been reinstalled. No change.
The trim around the shifter has been pulled. The J-Gate solenoid does not move under its own power. If the tab is pushed down, then the shifter can be placed out of park. If the shifter is pushed forward to park, it hits the "park" switch which makes a click in the ignition. When in the "R" position, if an object is behind the back-up sensors, sounds come saying it is too close.
The intake box has been removed, and the PCV tube below it is NOT cracked.
A spark plug has been pulled out, while power is applied to the starter, there is no spark.
A threaded nipple on the fuel line just left of the engine had a been pushed in and a little bit of fuel came out (I'm assuming what was pressurized). I'm assuming its for a fuel pressure guage. When the key is turned, no more fuel comes out. I'm assuming the fuel pump is not functioning.
The vehicle is parked on a slight incline, the rear is on the incline. At first, the fuel tank read below empty. I poured in a gallon of gas, and it the reading changed to 1/8 tank.
The intake tube has been taken off, and the butteryfly valve for the throttle body does not move at all when someone presses the throttle.
The ground for the ECU near the power steering reservoir has been removed, sanded and re-installed. There wasn't any corrosion, but I did it just in case. No change.
The inertia switch has been reset multiple times, and no change.
To recap: No crank. No fuel. No spark. No OBD2 code. DSC System Failure. Gearbox Fault.
The only thing I can think of is the ECU, but I cannot remove it. I've removed the two nuts in the engine bay. Then I removed one nut holding the bracket under the dash. I wasn't able to get it out. There appears to b a 5-pointed star with a raised center that is keeping me from pulling the harness off. Besides that, I do not know what other nuts and bolts are holding it in.
Please let me know if you guys have any ideas, because I'm pretty fresh out of them.
Thanks in advance!
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2010-08-07 20:53:19 |
No crank. No fuel. No spark. No OBD2 code. DSC System / Gearbox Fault.
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Jeroen Dorrestein
Heart of America Jaguar Club *
forum user since
2009-09-14
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I'm no expert on the X-type by any means, but it seems something pretty fundamental.
I'd say there's something messing with the cars-security system. That would explain all of the above at least.
As far as I know the key remote for the doors/trunk operate on a little battery in the key-ring. However, your key transponder for the car's security system is passive! It just needs to be near the transmitter which is mounted probably somewhere near the steering column or so.
Anyway, If you have a spare key, I would give that a try! Can't hurt.
Jeroen
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2010-08-07 20:57:01 |
No crank. No fuel. No spark. No OBD2 code. DSC System / Gearbox Fault.
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George Camp
Jaguar Society of South Carolina *
forum user since
2002-11-24
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I think I would try the roll over fuel shut off. Sounds like you are in a crash safety mode.
JCRC SE Member JCNA Publications JCNA Authenticity help lineJCNA RD SEVp JCNA |
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2010-08-16 23:18:04 |
No crank. No fuel. No spark. No OBD2 code. DSC System / Gearbox Fault.
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TPRO
Jaguar Affiliates Group of Michigan *
forum user since
2010-08-04
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How do I test the key? I only have one set.
I've tried reseting the fuel shut off in the kick panel of the right side under the dash. Nothing changes.
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2010-08-17 17:32:54 |
No crank. No fuel. No spark. No OBD2 code. DSC System / Gearbox Fault.
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Steven Petry
Jaguar Association of Greater Indiana *
forum user since
2007-02-03
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Look behind the shifter assembly, you will either have a small black grill or a DSC switch. In that bezel there is a small red LED. Turn the ignition on and watch the LED. If it flashed the key is not programmed to the car or there is a security system problem. If the LED stays on solid for several seconds, the key is programmed properly and read correctly by the system and should allow cranking. That will prove out the PATS key system.
S Petry
'95 XJR
'97 XK8 Conv.
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2010-08-24 19:01:39 |
No crank. No fuel. No spark. No OBD2 code. DSC System / Gearbox Fault.
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TPRO
Jaguar Affiliates Group of Michigan *
forum user since
2010-08-04
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Hi Steven,
The LED by the traction control switch stays solid for a few second, and then turns off. I am assuming the key is correctly programmed to the car. Could it be something else?
Thanks.
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2010-08-25 16:30:27 |
No crank. No fuel. No spark. No OBD2 code. DSC System / Gearbox Fault.
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Steven Petry
Jaguar Association of Greater Indiana *
forum user since
2007-02-03
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That means your security system and key is good to allow cranking. That's half the battle.
Now open the fusebox in the engine compartment. Use a test light or voltmeter and check fuses 41 and 42 for power with the ignition on, they should have 12 volts key on and nothing key off. If there is no power there, the problem is likely the relay R7 or it's diode. Turn the fusebox cover over and the fuse/relay layout is on the inside. R7 is usually gray and it's diode is right next door in the fuse row, it just has a diode symbol in it and it plugs in just like a fuse. You may have to have it tested by someone who knows how.
You can try to swap the R7 relay with one of the others, just be sure and not leave them switched. If the relay is the problem, swapping it may start the car, but the relay will not carry the current the correct one can. You need to get the correct replacement relay.
If that doesn't get you anywhere, we'll have to think about it some more.
S Petry
'95 XJR
'97 XK8 Conv.
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2011-12-25 14:15:35 |
No crank. No fuel. No spark. No OBD2 code. DSC System / Gearbox Fault.
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Thomas Elliott
on Member *
forum user since
2011-12-25
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Its easy to forget that automatic transmissions (all that I have seen and touched) give you two places for starting the engine, Park (obviously) and Neutral, the one always forgotten. I'll never forget driving my mother's car and it stalled while rolling about 30 mph. I shifted into neutral and restarted it. The moment I engaged the starter my mother started screaming. Women are SO non-mechanical and they SO never read an owners manual either. But I digress...
You say you "pulled codes"? Like a dentist pulls a tooth? I suppose you meant you accessed or retrieved them. I can't stand hearing people say "the computer started THROWING codes". Computers don't throw codes like someone tossing a bucket out of a window. They sense errors and STORE codes. But again I digress... One some (GM comes to mind) cars (and I suppose trucks too) the starter is under computer control to an extent. How do I know this? I've rented many cars and many times requested a Pontiac Grand AM. Once while starting one I didn't have a good grasp of those "ears" that line up with the key on the switch and my fingers slipped only a millisecond after engaging the starter. To my complete surprise the starter motor continued to crank the engine until it started. This is not to say that the computer is in-between the switch and the starter, only that the computer can step in and complete the starting cycle even if the switch itself is so-so. Aside from this, the reason the electrical connection that actually turns the starter motor is on the starter is because the large amount of current starters need cannot be sent by the relatively wimpy ignition switch. Power is always waiting at the ready in the switch so when you turn the key to START (not "ON" as you stated, On = Run) if the switch is working it sends that voltage to either a starter relay that in-turn closes while you're holding the key at start and sends that voltage to the starter solenoid, making it thrust the bendix outward to engage the flywheel teeth, AND at that moment of extension closes the contacts of a big switch and then the starter motor begins to turn. Some cars don't have a small start relay like many Fords do and the ignition switch in the start position sends voltage directly to the starter solenoid. Older GM cars were this way. Whether the X-Type has a Ford-style "fender mounted" starter solenoid I don't know. I will say that under the Ford umbrella Jaguars got two things they needed badly, a thoroughly modern electrical system and modern tooling on the assembly line. My guess (and that's all it is) is that this car's ignition switch (not the lock cylinder) has bad contacts for starting and isn't sending power on down the line to the starter relay. If it were and you are in a quiet place you'd be hearing a distinctive click (though faint) from the starter relay each time the key was turned to START, with the shifter in Park or Neutral. Try both positions. We (nor the engineers) would want the starter to engage in Reverse, Drive, 2, 3, or 4 so the so-called Neutral start switch in the shifter (also for Park) prevents starter engagement if in anything other than Park or Neutral. This switch being bad would prevent the starter relay from getting power. Do not bypass this switch and put the vehicle on the road, that is not a fix, that is dangerous. I would first check to see if you have power from the ignition switch in the start position, make sure the neutral start switch in the shifter is allowing power to flow out and to the starter relay. Your problem is somewhere in this area. On my X-Type (and this may be an easy way to check the neutral start switch is by turning the key to ON (not start position) move the shifter into Reverse or Drive, then turn the key off (or try to at least). Mine beeps a tone to let you know the shifter isn't in Park. This may not work for you. The computer may see the engine isn't running and pay no attention to the key being turned off. I sincerely hope this helps you or someone out there who reads this. Normally you would get into the vehicle, turn the key to on and get a Dynamic Stability Control System Fault or Gearbox Fault. Those are faults that are generated after the engine has started and the vehicle is moving. Consider them "moving violations" (not like the kind Cops write us up for).
Are your problems real or just a hologram? |
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2011-12-25 19:17:39 |
No crank. No fuel. No spark. No OBD2 code. DSC System / Gearbox Fault.
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Thomas Elliott
on Member *
forum user since
2011-12-25
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Battery power (+ 12 vdc) enters the Ignition Switch on terminal 18-5. Upon turning the key to the Start position Battery power is sent out of the switch on teminal 18-7. From Terminal 18-7 Battery power for Start is split between two places, terminal 1 of the Starter Relay's coil (relay R10 under the hood in the black box on the driver's side) and the other is into EN 16-6 (Crank Engine Request) of the Engine Control Module. *Note that the Starter Relay's other coil terminal is ungrounded until the ECM grounds it on it's EN 16-41 Start Engine terminal. There is also a connection from the J-gate shifter when in Park or Neutral (this is a safety interlock) going to the Engine Control Module's P, N connection EN 16-31. This could be a ground sensing input or 12 vdc, I'm not certain which. You're safe to temporarily jump the Park/Neutral switch but I'd be afraid to jump 12 volts into our out of it, that could damage the ECM. *If the starter engages when in Neutral but not Park that would indicate the J-gate's Park/Neutral switch or wiring is bad. That last connection being "satisfied" the shifter is in Park or Neutral along with the Crank Engine Request 12 vdc from the ignition switch in Start position makes a functioning Engine Control Module send a Start Engine (a ground) signal from terminal EN 16-41 of the ECM to ground the Starter Relay's coil terminal 2 so it engages. To recap this in plain english, its like the ECM computer thinks this way: "Give me 12 volts to my Engine Crank Request input AND the shifter is in Park or Neutral and I will ground the ungrounded coil terminal on the Starter Relay and make the Starter Relay actuate."
The Starter Relay now closes it's contacts sending 12 vdc to the Starter Solenoid. This makes the Starter Solenoid move the bendix into position to turn the flywheel (bolted between the engine and transmission) and the Solenoid also makes the high current connection to the Starter Motor and makes it turn.
My guess is the problem described is any of the following and isn't limited to just one but could be more than one in concert causing a no-go on the Start-o. So here goes.
Since you can jumper the starter Solenoid (sending battery power to the Starter) we know the starter is good. This however does not satisfy the ECM's need to know the shifter is in Park or Neutral, nor does this send the Crank Engine Request from the key in the Start position to the ECM. Result is it cranks the engine over but it doesn't start. With this Starter test the ECM does not see a Crank Request and therefore no fuel pump operation (and no fuel pressure as a direct result) and no spark to fire the plugs and no injectors operate (no fuel and no fire). Reasons this process breaks down could be
A: bad ignition switch failing to send power out to both the ECM's Engine Start Request input and one side of the Starter Relay coil terminal 1.
B: that signal never makes it to both places, only one, a wiring issue.
C: a defective Starter Relay or that relay not receiving it's necessary ground from the ECM's Start Engine terminal, a wiring issue or a bad ECM.
The ECM controls operation of the Fuel Injectors as well as the firing of the Separate Ignition Coils. So there you have it.
If it were me, I'd carefully first probe the ignition switch with a volt meter to find +12 vdc on it's terminal 18-5 and if it's there, jumper it over to the Start terminal 18-7 with the key in the On position and see if the engine starts and of course remove the jumper if it does start. Alternatively you can just probe the Ignition Switch's 18-7 terminal to see if it passes +12 vdc in the Start position or not. If it still doesn't start, check the J-gate Park/Neutral switch is closing and opening with an ohm meter (with the key and everything off). If that is a no-go, fix it and try the key again to start it. If it still does nothing, you'll need an assistant to turn the key to Start for you when you tell them to as you look for + 12 vdc at the Starter Relay. If you don't have it then check the wiring. If that is present then using a ohm meter check for resistance (good ground) to the other Starter Relay coil (terminal 2) when the key is turned to Start. If you get a ground but the relay doesn't click and you've verified that it is getting + 12 vdc on terminal 1, the relay is probably bad.
This I wrote after looking over the schematic of the car and it may help you if you are comfortable reading them. I've been doing so since 1979 and it isn't new to me. Here is the link to the schematic: http://www.captainjaguarscathouse.com/Electrical_Guides/X-Type%202002%20Elec%20Guide.pdf
Are your problems real or just a hologram? |
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