- JCNA Slalom Forum -

Slalom timing

Steve Weinstein
Jaguar Touring Club *

forum user since 2002-11-13

 

While we are discussing various rules changes, I have one that I would like considered -- timing equipment and reporting of times. I think the rules should strongly suggest, if not require, that all clubs running slaloms use automatic timing system (ATS). The use of ATS takes the human factor out of the scoring and assures accuracy. Alternatively, if hand held watches are used, they should be stopwatches capable of reading to three decimal places (0.000), and the time recorded should be the average of the two watches, not the faster or slower time.

And we should require that all clubs report times to 3 decimal places or they will not be counted as official for national standing purposes. There is a big different between reporting a time of 50 seconds, 50.5 seconds, 50.52 seconds or 50.529 seconds. As can often be seen, a tenth or a hundreth or sometimes a thousanth of a second can make a difference. We owe it to all competitors to assure that times are as accurate as possible and that all time reported nationally are done on the exact same basis.


Steve Weinstein,
JTC-NJ Slalom Chair
'72 E-type 2+2
'89 XJS Coupe

Re.: Slalom timing

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club *

forum user since 2002-10-27

 

getting timers is costly for clubs who only run one slalom a year... try explaining to your club's board that you need $ 500 for an event that 10, or 15 members will attend... Maybe JCNA should have a set specifically purchased and loaned to clubs. Using sturdy reusable packing of the component and laminated instructions could make it easy to ship back and forth. it's not that heavy....

the rules state : "If manual timing is used 2 timers are required. The time recorded will be the lower of the 2 timers' results if the timers agree within 0.2 of a second, otherwise a re-run will be authorized. "

I agree on the need to use the average but we need to keep it simple... 3 decmals ? come on... 2 decimal are fine...

requiring digital stopwatches is a good idea, $ 10 at radio shack...

Pascal Gademer
72 E-type 2+2
00 XKRCoupe
99 XJR

Re.: Slalom timing

Steve Weinstein
Jaguar Touring Club *

forum user since 2002-11-13

 

Pascal,

If you look at last year's results, club by club, you will see that some clubs reported results to only one decimal place or no decimals at all in some cases. If one club reports the times in whole numbers (e.g., 47, 52, etc.), and another reports with one decimal (47.1), the whole number is faster, as it is presumed that the whole number is 47.0, when in fact it may not have been. Similarly, if one club reports tenths, a 47.1 will beat a reported time of 47.11. That does not put all competitors on an equal footing.

I would agree that two decimal places is sufficient for recording time for our purposes. We should require that all clubs report to two decimal places and use timing equipment, whether manual or automatic, that reads to at least two decimal places. Results that do not conform to the two decimal place rule should be posted, but not counted for national standings. In reporting times from a watch or equipment that reads to three decimal places, the official time should be the first two decimals as shown on the watch, not rounded up or down for the third digit. Just ignor the third digit as if it wasn't there.

Also, I raised the issue about averaging, because I believe it is inappropriate to take the lower of two manual times. I was a US Swimming official for many years and dealt with hand timing issues many times. Most organizations that allow the use of manual times require digital stopwatches and compare times. If they are the same, that is the time. If they are not the same, the official time is the average of the watches, not the lower (otherwise, this assumes the faster time is always right and the slower always wrong). And if the watches disagree by more than a set amount (.2/sec.?), both times should be disregarded and the competitor allowed a re-run. No official times should be permitted based on only one watch -- two should be required.

One last point, because hand timing is far less accurate than automatic timing, no national record overall or in any class should be established by hand timing. For a record, only automatic timing should count.

Steve Weinstein
JTC-NJ Slalom Chair
'72 E-type 2+2
'89 XJS Coupe

Re.: Slalom timing

Steve Weinstein
Jaguar Touring Club *

forum user since 2002-11-13

 

Pascal,

By the way, it came to my attention that not all that many years ago, JCNA received a grant of $5000.00 from Michelin to fund the purchase of timing equipment. I understand that any club that wanted to buy the equipment would receive a $250 grant from JCNA to help defray the cost. As it looks like only about 15 clubs actually run slaloms, even if all had bought equipment, there should still be some money left. How many clubs have availed themselves of this grant and purchased equipment, and how much money is left?

If a lot of other JCNA clubs want to buy equipment, perhaps Michelin or another corporate sponsor, like Pirelli, might give us some additional money to help pay for equipment. Lord only knows how many Pirelli's and Michelins we all chew up on the race course.

Steve Weinstein, JTC-NJ
'72 E-type 2+2
'89 XJS Coupe

Re.: Slalom timing

George Camp
Jaguar Society of South Carolina *

forum user since 2002-11-24

 

Timing lights or watches? Our club discussed buying lights and decided not to due to cost but more because of maintenance issues. This thread is useless as any one with serious competition sense knows that the big difference is the surface and the temp/ weather. What do we do after everyone has three digit timers. Submit a sample of the surface and only run in conditions set forth by decree? On good aircraft surfaces I can cut three seconds off my time on a clean parking lot. QED

George Camp

Re.: Slalom timing

Gary Hagopian
Jaguar Association of New England *

forum user since 2002-11-05

 

Steve,

You're correct. The AGM passed a resolution proposed by Jerry Parkhill stating that the JCNA pay 1/2 of the cost of a club's timers, up to a max reimbursement of $250.00
All a club has to do is send Nelson Rath a copy of their invoice to receive. Makes no difference as to how much money's left. Every JCNA club is entitled, by the passage of that resolution.

Gary Hagopian


Re.: Slalom timing

Patrick McLoad
Jaguar Club of Houston *

forum user since 2002-12-06

 

So where does one find timming lights to purchase?

Patrick McLoad
JC Houston

Re.: Slalom timing

Steve Weinstein
Jaguar Touring Club *

forum user since 2002-11-13

 

Patrick,

The following information is on the JCNA Slalom Center page on this website:

Model 1602 Different start/finish: $510.00 USD.

Bill Kowalski
Elan Engineering Corp.
P.O.Box 486
Hinsdale, IL. 60522-0486
Phone 630-852-6898, Fax 630-852-2077

This is the system that JTC purchased, and it works well. Hope that helps. Don't forget, when your club orders the equipment, you're entitled to the JCNA supplement to help fund the cost.

Steve Weinstein, JTC-NJ
'72 E-type 2+2
'89 XJS Coupe

Re.: Slalom timing

Daniel Thompson
Jaguar Owners Association / JOA-Montrea *

forum user since 2002-11-12

 

I tried to order equipment from this supplier and he told me he no longer supplies this market. That was over a year ago.

We will have to encourage the slalom committee to find a new supplier for JCNA.

Daniel
2002 X-type
1968 E-type
1958 MkIX
1952 XK120

Re.: Slalom timing

Stew Cleave
on Member *

forum user since 2002-11-12

 

Daniel,

JOCO is in the market for this equipment. We've had trouble contacting the supplier listed, now we know why. If JCNA knows of another official supplier please contact me or Bill Smith, JOCO's new Slalom Chair.

PS: Western States is not in leiu of a local club concours. The local club hosting Western States sometimes, but not necessarily, coordinates their concours to coincide with Western States. All NW regional clubs hold their own annual concours. At the last Western States, the host club not only held the Western States Concours but held their own club concours a month or two latter. Yes, they were exhausted, bless their hearts.

Stew Cleave
JOCO Chief Judge
'69 E-Type 2+2
and other LBC's

Re.: Slalom timing

Art Dickenson
Pacific Jaguar Enthusiasts Group *

forum user since 2002-12-01

 



I totally agree with the average of the 2 times being recorded as the official time, although Gary disagrees, this has been a point of mine for a considerable time. Gary believes most people are incapable of division, (as I myself are incapable of correctly typing 40 words per minute ) in an instant, actually both times could be recorded, and divided in the aftermath on a calculator, rather than giving the person another run.
Personally , human error and or motivation could influence a competitors time using stopwatches, and I believe should only be used as a last resort.
JCNA provides 250 US $ to any club buying a timer set and running 2 events in the yesr ( sanctioned slaloms ). There is no excuse for not having a decent set, perhaps the type that Bill Stritenberger mentions in his comment re timers.Our group of enthusiasts at Pacific Jaguar purchased a set in our first year of operation, and if we had not been able to afford it with only about 20 members, I would have purchased them myself. When JDRC/ NWA were having problems affording them , I offered Steve Averill the money to buy them myself personally if in fact they could not raise it with only 300 members. It is neccessary to have good electronics to ahieve reliable, accurate to 1/10,000th of a second accuracy. Last years two fastest times in JCNA were only less than 2 tenths of a second between the two of us.
The only reason I have not proposed that it is mandatory to have full automatic timers, is that I do not wish to deter people from joining in enjoying JCNAs most affordable sporting thrill.

Re.: Slalom timing

Steve Weinstein
Jaguar Touring Club *

forum user since 2002-11-13

 

Art,

I'm glad someone understands my point on this. Certainly, we should not compel any club to go out and spend money on timing equipment, whether partially subsidized or not by JCNA, just to run a slalom. However, as you note, the two fastest times nationally last year were within 2 tenths of a second. Handheld watches simply are not accurate enough to base national standings on, especially when 10ths or even 100ths of a second can make a difference.

We should certainly encourage local clubs to run slaloms. But for national ranking purposes, in my opinion, only scores recorded with automatic timing equipment, to at least 100th of a second, if not 1000th, should be required. If handheld watches are used, scoring should be based on two watches, with times of the watches averaged. But those times should not count for national ranking. Alternatively, if we allow handheld watches for all purposes, the times should definitely be averaged between two watches and recorded to a required minimum, like 100th or 1000th of a second. Uniformity of reporting is as important as the method of taking the times.

Steve Weinstein, JTC-NJ
'72 E-type 2+2
'89 XJS Coupe

Re.: Slalom timing

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club *

forum user since 2002-10-27

 


I posted the info provided by Bill Streitenberger on the slalom page sincce the prevous supplier is no longer in business.

I also believe that automated timing should be a rquirement for times to be allowed for National standings. I just don't see how manual start and stop of a stop watch can come close to teh needed accuaracy.

Has anyone tried manual timing while using automatic equipemnt and compared? any data on this?

why don't we have JCNA purchase one set of timing equpiment and lend it to the clubs who don't have any? all it would take is a sturdy box with the right foam inserts to be reused. Clubs would pay for the shipment back.

it's not heavy, probably no more than 10 to $15 via Fedex 2 bus day, that would limit transit time and risk for damage.

Of all clubs that held slaloms last year, how many were manually timed? shouldn't that info be disclosed?

Pascal Gademer
SFJC

Re.: Slalom timing

Gary Hagopian
Jaguar Association of New England *

forum user since 2002-11-05

 


Pascal's idea of having the JCNA lend electronic timers to clubs conducting slaloms, is excellent! If the slalom committee makes this request of me, and I'll ask the exec. committee for approval for two such systems. We can purchase only one, and if conflicts occur, the second system can be immediately be purchased. Then, a new rule requiring timers, should not overburden any club.

JANE has used both manual and electronic timing, sometimes because the electronic timers failed. JTC slaloms have had similar experience. When we've used the two watch system while backing up recalcitrant timers, I have been amazed at how closely the times agree. That's why I never pushed for mandatory electronic timing, nor AVERAGING OF TIMES which are so close(0.2 sec agreement req'd) that it didn't seem worth the potential for mistakes, and the extra time required. (I realize that a laptop could easily solve both problems)

The next move is up to the committee.

Gary Hagopian, JCNA President

Re.: Slalom timing

George Camp
Jaguar Society of South Carolina *

forum user since 2002-11-24

 

Long proven fact that hand held is likely to be slower. Under your thoughts if the timers fail at an event it would not count? Drop this idea as it is a non starter. Most clubs (mine included) have discussed it and did not want to buy or they would have. You are trying to take the fun out of this like the fun was taken out of vintage racing.

George Camp

Re.: Slalom timing

Gary Hagopian
Jaguar Association of New England *

forum user since 2002-11-05

 


George,
Please re read my offer to ask the exec. committee to purchase a set of timers to LOAN TO THE CLUBS NOT WISHING TO PURCHASE.
Note that I said that we use our watches when the timers fail. NOWHERE did I suggest that manual timing was not acceptable. I believe that my description of our experience with watches was favorable.
I fail to see where I suggested anything that would remove the fun. Fun is running, and not having to have two folks tied up timing and averaging.
Gary

Re.: Slalom timing

Linda Young
Jaguar Club of Tulsa *

forum user since 2002-11-06

 

To All:

Both clubs in Oklahoma (COJA - Central Oklahoma Jaguar Assoc.) & the Jaguar Club of Tulsa (JCTI) own timing lights. Both clubs offer support to clubs in Kansas and Texas that are in the process of developing their slalom programs by lending our expertise and our equipment. In the future these clubs may purchase their own equipment but in the meantime it is called "Communication and co-operation". It works for us!

L D Young

Re.: Slalom timing

Steve Weinstein
Jaguar Touring Club *

forum user since 2002-11-13

 

Linda,

We have had a similar experience here in NJ. Our club (Jaguar Touring Club) owns equipment, but the Jaguar Auto Group does not. We loan our equipment to JAG for their slaloms, and in return, they come and help us set up and run ours.

George Camp's point is a good one regarding watches. But I'm still convinced that if hand held watches are used, the appropriate time should be the average of the two watches, not the fastest or slowest of the two.

Also, we should agree on a format for submission -- i.e., how many decimal places must be reported (e.g., 12.3, 12.34 or 12.345). I personally believe it should not be less than 100ths (12.34). Uniform reporting is imperative, especially since Pascal is putting all of these onto the website and determining relative placement based on them.

Steve Weinstein,
JTC-NJ Slalom Chair
'72 E-type 2+2
'89 XJS Coupe