- JCNA Rally Forum -

Can the rally program be saved ?

Pascal Gademer, Webmaster
South Florida Jaguar Club *

forum user since 2002-10-30

 

Let me first start by stating that i don't mean this thread as a criticism of the Rally committee, its chair or any JCNA "official". This is not the point of this discussion.

The system is not working, let's try to find some solutions.

in 2007, there were 15 rallies, the majority of which were not even REAL club events, but rallies organized by other organizations in which a very small number of JCNA members participated.

The average number of Jaguars in 2007 rallies, if we exclude the Challenge Championship, is like 3 or 4. In some cases, there were only ONE or TWO Jaguars, or club members. There is at least one event where the only Jaguar entered received 1st place points even though it finished dead last behind 8 or 9 non jaguars / non members.

We currently have EIGHT classes in the rally championship, but only 6 or 7 teams eligible for awards.

This doesn't make any sense at all.

The slalom committee has tried to do everything possible to make it easy and to allow clubs as much flexibility as possible, allowing different rally types, different level of equipment plus novice classes.

it's not working.

I don't know what the solution is, I wish i knew... but it would be nice to get some feedback and see what can be done.

Here are some suggestions / ideas to consider.

- Shouldnt' there be a minimum number of Jaguars in a rally for that rally to be JCNA sanctioned. currently, the rules states 5 cars minimum, I wonder if it shouldn't be 5 Jaguars.

- Should we reduce the number of classes. There were no Monte Carlo rallies this year or last year... ? Do we need to have different classes based on equipemnt ? seems like a regional preference... one club in the NE runs in Speedo only class, the rest of the clubs in Speed/odo (and TC) class.

Do we really need novice classes ? I know the intent was to encourage new participants but there were few novices this year and in some rallies they beat non novices ! How about just a Rookie of the year rally award instead of full fledge novice classes?


Why dont JCNA club organize more rallies ? How can we encourage it ? this these are the critical questions... again i wish i knew the answers. What i know is why our club has not organized a rally in 4 or 5 years... low participation and the amount of work it takes are the main reasons.

planning a rally takes time, you need to recon the route at least once and prepare the road book. it's kind of depressing to do all the work for 5 or 6 cars to show up. Then it's usually the rally enthusiast who's going to do the work and not enjoy the results... not enticing.

Looking at the rules, it seems like the easiest type of rally to organize would be Monte Carlo style rally since the rally masters only need to supply a map and check point location, eliminating the need to recon the route and write dozens of line by line instructions.

so why don't we have more of these ? what is more fun than driving our Jaguars together ?

When your club has a drive planned, why not making it into a Monte Carlo Rally ? I'm thinking about converting an upcoming drive and lunch our club has on Feb. 10th to a sanctioned Monte Carlo Rally. it would be pretty easy.

However, i'd like to hear the same commitment from other clubs so that we can all work together to have a REAL JCNA Rally program.

Can the rally program be saved ?

Thomas Cutrona
Delaware Valley Jaguar Club *

forum user since 2008-01-07

 

Being new to JCNA, I can only relate to rallying in the days of Lucas electronics (lights,ignitions, gauges- sometimes). At that time a minimum number of vehicles was required for award of points. That should still be a viable requirement. The simpler format proposed should increase participation. Enough complex concerns Monday to Friday, let's relax on weekends or at least make them less hectic and more enjoyable. Separate classes should work. They did in the past. There will be some that are serious about TSD rallying, as I once was, and others that would enjoy a "fun rally", as I would now. Whar ever comes from iy, "Good luck! " I hope it all works out in the end.

Can the rally program be saved ?

Pascal Gademer, Webmaster
South Florida Jaguar Club *

forum user since 2002-10-30

 

well, i decided to put my money where mouth was... and our club upcoming drive to the Fl. Keys is going to be run as a Monte Carlo Rally... two stages in the morning on the way to the restaurant, one stage in the afternoon. Since it's a joint event with the local Alfa Romeo club, we're going to have a Jagfa Rally Challenge, or is it Alguar..., by adding each club points and the loosing club will pick up the bar tab at the end of the rally...

so let's all try to save our rally program, shall we ? how about other clubs do the same ?

the nice thing about the MC format/class is that it requires much less work to prepare (no lenghty road instructions, just maps)... no excuse.

At least give it a try... i hope to see some sanction requests coming in!

Pascal
72 E-type 2+2
South Florida JC

Can the rally program be saved ?

Dan Lokun
Jaguar Affiliates Group of Michigan *

forum user since 2005-06-22

 

I would recommend a rally by OJOA if I knew what it entailed. Is there a "how to guide"?

Regards,
Dan Lokun
Toronto Canada
90 XJ-S, etc.

Can the rally program be saved ?

Dan Lokun
Jaguar Affiliates Group of Michigan *

forum user since 2005-06-22

 



I saw the Rally Guide is on JCNA.com.

Regards,

Dan Lokun
Toronto Canada
'90 XJ-S, etc.




Can the rally program be saved ?

Garry G. Deaton
*

forum user since 2008-02-12

 

As a rally participant and rallymaster since the seventies, the problem of "re-inventing" rallying has been a constant one. There are those that enjoy calculating and those that do not. No matter what a rallymaster does there will be those that are not satisfied. One thing that puts off potential rallymasters is the thought that they do not have the experience. The K.I.S.S. approach is the best . That's Keep It Simple, Stupid.
One type of simple rally is an AVERAGE JOE. The rallymaster simply finds some fun roads and writes VERY simple instructions. Each team writes down the time they start the rally from their own watch on the instructions. This includes hour, minute and second. At points along the route, say rest stops, they write down the time they arrive. They are then free to stay as long as needed before thet resume the route. When they leave the rest stop, they again write down the time of their departure. The rallymaster collects the instructions from the entrants at the end of the event. The rallymaster then calculates the time that each team took to run the event. Time spent in a rest stop is NOT counted. The total time for each car is added together to find total time for ALL of the entrants. This time is then divided by the number of entrants to find the "average" time for the event. The winner is the team that comes CLOSEST to the "average" time. So, you do not want to be fastest or slowest. You want to be "average". This can also be done as a POINT A to POINT B, POINT B to POINT C, POINT C to POINT D, etc.... event where each POINT to POINT is scored.

Key times can be used to help first-time or teams with limited experience on timed events. I would suggest the Official Mileage and the Perfect Time at EVERY instruction. This will get the driver the idea of how each CAST feels in the vehicle. The navigator can calculate and see if their numbers match. It's NOT as easy as it sounds. A rallymaster can make that the team is actually rallying the course by having an instruction that is actually the checkpoint location. This instruction DOES NOT identify itself as the checkpoint. It could be written as a stop sign, a bridge, a railroad crossing, a sign, anything the rallymaster can come up with. When the competing team reaches the checkpoint, the leg is over even if more instructions (which are false) are on the page. The next leg begins on the next page.

These are as few things to consider. The MAIN thing is to do something that your group thinks can be FUN!!!!

GARRY

NEOKLA REGION SCCA Rally guy since '69

Can the rally program be saved ?

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club *

forum user since 2002-10-27

 

thanks Gary, interesting perspective.

we did a Monte Carlo Rally on sunday and i think this is the easiest, most relaxed format since the navigator doesn't have to spend the whole time calculating times and reading/checking instructions.

I know that TSD are "real" rallies but I think that for most of our members it's is too complicated. JCNA rules Monte Carlo are as easy as it gets. as long as you can synch your watch or have a stop watch, you have a chance... yet a number of cars blew i by significant margins.

the title of this thread as "can the rally program be saved?". well, I have doubts after last week end.

we put together a fun event, with a great lunch stop in the Keys, and winter is our prime driving season. We had 15 cars... trouble is that only FOUR were Jaguars... and out of the four, only two were club membes... the other two were also Alfa owners and attended as such.

It's a good thing that i put together this rally as a joint JAguar and Alfa event (my girlfriend is the pres of the SoFl alfa club...) otherwise if only two teams had showed up, i would just have gone home.

the sad and graphic proof is seen in this picture : how many Jaguars do you see among Alfas ?



Can the rally program be saved ?

Ginger Corda
Jaguar Club of Florida *

forum user since 2002-11-07

 

We sure had fun on our outing Sunday - LOTS of Jaguars and a couple of Austin-Healeys on the driving tour. Funny thing is NO ONE wants to do a TSD rally. We have so much fun running together without the stress of all that ... what can I say?

From my personal point of view and experience, it is not fun to create, or run a JCNA sanctioned rally. Our tours are successful eveb though participants know UP FRONT that no trophies or scores will be earned or given. Either we don't have any, or it weeds out the folks who would only be in it for a trophy. The Jaguars sign up in healthy numbers and enjoy themselves immensely. There is never an argument or stressful moment regarding time and navigation. Marriages remain intact. Never is a thought given to competition. Instead, we donate hundreds of dollars to our charity. How refreshing.


Ginger


Can the rally program be saved ?

David G. Belanger
Jaguar Club of Houston *

forum user since 2007-10-30

 

This post is a response to Proposals 1 thru 4 that appear in the AGM Rally agenda item. The proposals were reformatted and numbered by the Rally Committee based on Pascal Gademer's post at the start of this thread and my comments address the numbers used in the agenda item. They will be voted on at the AGM.

I strongly disagree that proposals 1 through 3 will have any beneficial effect on the JCNA Rally Program and I urge the delgates to read the following responses before casting their votes. Let's look at each one.

Proposal No.1 would exclude the results of any rally that did not include a minimum of five (5) Jaguars AND JCNA drivers and navigators. Researching the rally results posted on JCNA.com between 2004 and 2007 shows that 46 rallies were sanctioned but applying the five Jaguar rule removes 19 of these, leaving only 27 rallies in four years. 5 more were borderline with only 5 Jaguars.

If the prospect of $4 gas doesn't make competitors think twice about driving hundreds or even thousands of miles to enter, a 41% chance that there will not be 4 other Jaguars entered and thus their scores won't be counted should. This will become a self-fulfilling prophecy as competitors who would need to travel more than a short distance stay home.

Also excluded by the wording are rally teams in Jaguars where one or both members are not JCNA members. JCNA members not in Jaguars are already disqualified before they start. How much further do we want to go to discourage participation?

The JCNA rally program certainly needs more participants. In 2007 the AGM delegates approved JCNA clubs obtaining sanctions for rallies run by other organizations. This now allows JCNA members to compete in these events and acquire points that will count in the JCNA standings, provided their rules are compatible. In 2007 JCNA clubs in the central part of the country had access to five additional rallies through the SCCA connection. The fact that few took advantage of this in 2007 does not mean the program should be scrapped after less than a year. How many years did the Luckenbach or Delaware Valley rallies operate before they had five Jaguars running? I received the preliminary 2008 SCCA calendar in January and there were 22 touring rallies already scheduled that would be compatible with our TSD rules. If we want to increase participation this is a very viable alternative, especially given JCNA's lack of critical mass and skilled rallymasters.

The answer to low turnout is not to write more requirements for the number of Jaguars or JCNA members participating. The answer is to provide more opportunities for JCNA members to participate in rallies. We laid the groundwork for that in 2007, now it's time to work on increasing participation. The objective should be to get Jaguar owners on the road, no matter what they're driving or who collects the entry fee.

It takes a lot of time and effort to organize a TSD rally - many weeks and lots of $4 gasoline - but we now have an experienced partner that would love to see us enter their events. Even if your club members are reluctant to enter, ask them to volunteer as checkpoint workers. I can assure you they will be welcome.

Finally, there is the innuendo that rallies without some number of Jaguars are somehow deficient. Based on my experience in 2007 nothing could be further from the truth. We faced the SCCA National Champion in two rallies as well as skilled competitors from all over the USA in regional rallies. Two firsts in our SCCA (not JCNA) class and a regional SCCA 1st place trophy demonstrate that Jaguars have nothing to be ashamed of in these outings no matter how many of them appeared.


Proposal No. 2 would require the JCNA affiliate that requested the sanction to furnish the partner organization's rally manual, general instructions, route instructions and other paperwork to the JCNA Rally Committee Chair within 20 days of the conclusion of the rally "to verify that the rally complied with JCNA Rally Rules."

The most obvious problem with this is that it exposes a team to the time and expense of entering a rally without knowing if one person will later rule that the rally did not qualify for JCNA competition. I agree that a new partner's rally rules need to be reviewed to determine compatibility, but the time to do this is before the event, not after.

As written this would also lead to a massive amount of unnecessary work for the Rally Committee chair. An organization like the SCCA - our most obvious partner - manages their rally rules in the same manner as JCNA and the rules are updated annually and available on a web site. A single review by the JCNA Rally Chair to ensure that the rules meet the "compatible" test should be sufficient for the year. This should be done prior to sanctioning and there should be a requirement that the review must be completed in a timely manner so as to allow sufficient notice of an event.


Proposal No 3. would reduce the number of classes to two by combining the eight Monte Carlo and TSD classes into one Monte Carlo and one TSD class and eliminating the corresponding Novice classes.

Anyone who is familiar with the T1 and T2 classes should know that the navigation techniques and equipment rules are significantly different and elimination of the T1 class could make the resulting rules incompatible with those of the organization that runs the six Delaware Valley Rally club events. I think the consequences of this could be very detrimental to the JCNA program.

I have no objections to combining the Monte Carlo classes and eliminating the Novice classes in favor of a "Rookie of the Year" award in each surviving class. This part of the proposal is very similar to one I made in 2005.


Proposal No. 4 would replace the first, second, and third Novice awards in each of the eight existing classes with an award to the top entrant with no previous JCNA rally experience. I have no objections to this.

Dave Belanger
Jaguar Club of Houston


Dave Belanger
Jaguar Club of Houston

2000 S-TYPE 4.0
2001 S-TYPE 4.0
2003 XK8 4.2 Coupe


Can the rally program be saved ?

Pascal Gademer
South Florida Jaguar Club *

forum user since 2002-10-27

 

"Finally, there is the innuendo that rallies without some number of Jaguars are somehow deficient. Based on my experience in 2007 nothing could be further from the truth. We faced the SCCA National Champion in two rallies as well as skilled competitors from all over the USA in regional rallies. "

Dave, no, this is inacurate. you didn't face the SCCA National Champion or other skilled competitor because these guys were not included in the final results...

http://www.jcna.com/scores/results.php?standyear=2007&showdetails=590
in this rally teh only Jaguar which finishes 2nd overall receives a full 10 points.

http://www.jcna.com/scores/results.php?standyear=2007&showdetails=533
here the issue become even more obvious, the only Jaguar finishes next to last and again receives full 10 points.

doens't make any sense to me...

as to participation, do you think such "anomalies" encourage others to participate?

i dont' think so....


Can the rally program be saved ?

David G. Belanger
Jaguar Club of Houston *

forum user since 2007-10-30

 

Pascal -

1. As of 5:20 CDT on March 15 the scores were (still) posted on JCNA.com for the April 28 and 29 Tulsa rallies and all entrants and their scores were listed. You obviously looked at the individual events and saw these, otherwise you wouldn't have known the total number of cars for your comment about the Wisconsin rally. If the other names are not in the JCNA standings, it's because (as we both know) the scoring system drops entrants without JCNA numbers. The SCCA Newsletter has additional information on the competitors and the results.

2. JCNA has always recognized the existance of other marques in its rallies. The Rally Manual states that only Jaguar scores count in North American standings and specifies the number of points that each team receives based on the finishing order. No matter where that Jaguar places, it earns 10 points.

3. When looking at absolute scores you have to take into account that many SCCA entries have specialized onboard rally computers with direct connections to the cars' wheels. It should not be surprising if this configuration produces results far superior to the odometer, stopwatch, and calculators of the Stock class that is equivalent to JCNA's T2 class.



Dave Belanger
Jaguar Club of Houston

2000 S-TYPE 4.0
2001 S-TYPE 4.0
2003 XK8 4.2 Coupe


Re.: Can the rally program be saved ?

Pascal Gademer, Webmaster
South Florida Jaguar Club *

forum user since 2002-10-30

 

Edited on 2008-03-26 9:40:41

DAve

the scoring system indeed drops non members from the standings BUT NOT from individual resutls. So I'm not sure why you're bringing this into the picture... your 1)- makes no sense at all.

these are the official results from that 4/29 event :

T2 1 CYNTHIA LOVEALL /DAVID & MARILEE BELANGER SC16-31972
SC38-35405 Jaguar 1995 XJS Conv Flamenco red 228 10 Heart of America Jaguar Club
Z1 1 Jameson/Sears Toyota 1990 Camry - Black 11 0 Scca Tucson, AZ
Z1 2 Weaver/Bireta Volvo 1998 V70 White 27 0 SCCA Kansas Region
Z1 3 Hampel /Hampel Ford 2007 Mustang Black 213 0 Little Rock, AR
Z1 4 Bettinger / Heston volvo 2003 Sedan Bronze 244 0 SCCA Wichita, KS

So., we have five cars in the rally which indeed means it qualifies as a legit JCNA sanctioned rally.

The problem that i see, is that the only Jaguar in that even, finished NEXT TO LAST with 228 points. Yet, that team collects a full 10 points...

where is the logic? what satisfaction does one get collecting first place points by finishing NEXT TO LAST ? How does this help promote rally participation?

What you stated is misleading and inacurate. Other entrants were not dropped from the system... THEY WERE NEVER ENTERED ! again, non JCNA entrants ARE NOT DROPPED from event resutls, only from standings since they dont' qualify for awards.

You claim that including SCCA rallies and allowing one JCNA/Jaguar to collect points will help promote participation but look at it from another member point of view.... why would you even bother entering a JCNA rally with REAL competition (other JCNA members driving their Jaguars) when someone can finish next to last at an SCCA event yet collect first place points because they are the only Jaguar in the event?

would you even bother? I dont' think so. This is why i think we need a minimum of FIVE Jaguars in a rally for that rally to qualify as a valid JCNA event. My club recent Monte Carlo Rally woudln't qualify for 2008 if my proposal passes because we didn't have 5 jaguars even though we organized the event! The first of 4 Jaguars was 5th overall...it woudldn't be fair to other Monte Carlo participants if that team got full 10 points, woudl it?

come on now, are you telling me that a team with the following results deserves a full TEN points at each of these events ???
April 28th : 4th out of 5 collects 10 points.
April 29th : 4th out of 5 collects 10 points
Sept 15th : 9th out of 9 collects 10 points
Sept 16th: 9th out of 10 collects 10 points...
July 22nd: 2nd out of 6 collects 10 points







72 E-type 2+2 Silver

Can the rally program be saved ?

Ginger Corda
Jaguar Club of Florida *

forum user since 2002-11-07

 

Yes, the participant details of the rallies, including non-Jaguar listings, are on the reports of the individual events. It doesn't appear that any Jaguars were dropped for not having a JCNA number on other reports... See example:
http://www.jcna.com/scores/results.php?standyear=2007&showdetails=537

I don't see how this new way to "take advantage" of the relaxed rules had any beneficial effect on the JCNA Rally Program. If anything, it makes it kind of a joke. Coming in last or next to last with non-Jaguars "earned" 10 points? I wouldn't consider these Jaguar rallies at all.

After seeing it applied this way, it does not make sense at all and is objectionable. I don't see how using the rules this way could encourage JCNA participation. It didn't apear to draw more Jaguars to those rallies. In fact, these results will skew the scores, and dash all hopes of being fair.

I agree with Pascal. This is wrong, and needs correcting.

Ginger

Can the rally program be saved ?

Brian Blackwell
San Antonio Jaguar Club *

forum user since 2004-08-07

 

JCNA expects all members to behave in a manner that supports the objectives of JCNA, namely to preserve and enhance the marque. To some degree, all three event programs, Rally, as well as Concours and Slalom, have had the experience where individuals have attempted, with varying degrees of success, to drive rule changes that enhance their personal competitiveness, or in rally's case in 2007, the ability to run enough rallies as the only JCNA car in an event to get 3 or more first places and ensure a win or tie for Rally Championship.

When the 5 car minimum rule was passed around 2003 or 2004, it was certainly intended for 5 Jaguars, but as it was when we did the lowest three total seconds scores to determine the winner, it did not matter. Everyone ran against the clock, reference the earlier relative complexity comment as to why that had its own set of issues.

When the conversion to a points system was recommended by the Rally Committee to address the perennial issue of relative complexity of different rallies, relative position to other cars assumed a new importance. A 5 JCNA car/entrant minimum should have been instituted at that time.

I agree with Ginger and Pascal that intentionally getting 10 points in 5 rallies as the only JCNA entrant makes the entire 2007 Rally program a JOKE.

If a JCNA rallymaster does not think that 5 Jaguar powered cars with JCNA Drivers or Navigators will show up, I have to wonder why the rallymaster would want to spend 3 or 4 rally runs worth of fuel and maintenance costs to even set one up.

To answer the basic question: for everyone willing to participate and contribute positively, this program does not need saving. Making rules more restrictive, and thus creating more controversy and protest opportunities, takes it in the opposite direction.

Brian Blackwell
JCNA Rally Committee Chair

Brian Blackwell