Re.: jcna page 9 and 10 to bad for jaguar....

Howard your opinion of Mr. Callum's efforts are very well known and restating them over and over is really not necessary. What I would ask you is where is your support that Enzo Freeari ever said that? I know it is popular to repeat it but really where are you getting that? Are you just repeating things you read or heard? Not picking a fight but part of your argument is that Jaguar is ignoring it's past and repeating a statement as fact seems to be sort of the same thing. So please tell us a source for that quote. I know that a "driver" has related that it was said. Enzo Ferrari talking to a "driver"--unlikely. He did not speak to his own Formula drivers. Enzo speaking English--nope. The driver speaking "I"--nope. So was there a reporter or translator there--good question. So good it has gone unanswered. So what do you say? Thanks!

Howard, You are spot on....There is only one car that has met a worse fate in the last 12 months. THE NEW VANQUISH!
As you stated correctly, Aston kept doing surveys about what to call the new car.
Of course EVERY person recognised "VANQUISH", so in their head If we ask 10,000 people under 40 what car would you like in the aston line up Vanquish was it.
Almost 90% of owners sent letters and emails, holding the original Vanquish to a higher standard. DONT DO IT! Its sacred.
They didnt listen and its been a joke on the AMOC forum ever since.
All of us original owners keep begging Aston to release the total amount of purchased NEW VANQUISH'S, on paper I dont think they sold 2.
A rebadge db9 for only $330,000 dollars.....
Hey look it could be worse.......GM broke the golden rule and the new corvette is a STINRAY !
The pure kiss of death and another ugly american oversized boat.
At least Jag DIDN'T call it the ETYPE.
That would have been the final insult.
Im happy to see others see the same thing.
At Amelia Island, people just walked past the new Ftype, sad but true.
They blew it by having a xj220 next to it, guess what everyone was looking at?
The first car company to turn off the computers and black text boxes and actually draws a DESIGN, will be on top.
Its all boring these days.....hope my etype goes to 200 grand, looks that way, but who cares, Im being buried in the damn thing!
GTJOEY1314

As an Industrial Designer and corporate SRVP. of a consumer products company, I have worked with marketing people for over 30 years. Already it seems the F will not be anything like the world sensation the E was. As much as I want Jaguar to succeed, I am afraid, after doing some research into the history of Ian Callum, as Design Director at Jaguar, that Jaguar has fallen into the modern day malaise of uncreative marketing executives holding power over the design direction of new products. and ending up with products that are just 5%-10% different than the competition and not breakthrough.

I feel that much of the blame as to why the F doesn't have any E-Type dna, and that is the big mistake, has to be placed on the marketing people. They hold the pursestrings. Many times they direct designers into doing something that is "safe". They are generally not risk takers. They don't have the "gut" feel for what is the right thing to do. That is why they research everything. They always want the consumers to tell them what to do, so when the product fails they can "blame the research" and not blemish their career, which is more important to them than the product!

Young people, of the age that Jaguar is supposedly marketing to now, marvel at the looks of my 1961 E-Type. All the time! The style and line is as pure and contemporary today as it was 52 years ago. An updated version, designed to meet all of todays requirements, could be introduced new, tomorrow, and be a world sensation!

Think about the two most important things that the E was when it was introduced: "It was the most beautiful car ever made," Enzo Ferrari said it and it still is true! Most say the F looks like many other cars already out there, I've researched it and that is so true. It has NO seminal Jaguar styling cues, but has many that look like Mazda, Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, Acura, and on and on etc. Marketing doesn't want to take risks!

The E was priced at a level where proportionally many more could afford one versus where the F is priced now: The comment that us older, maybe more well heeled guys are the ones who can more readily buy one goes totally counter to anyone saying they are appealing to a younger demographic.

Here is some interesting history on Ian Callum, Jaguars Director of Design. When he was new at Jaguar back in 2005, Callum designed a pretty slick new XK that was shown in rendering form in Motor Trend, February 2005 alongside an article with quotes by Joe Greenwood, then President of Jaguar Land Rover. Callums design then had a lot of E-Type dna stylistically and was captioned with the words, "More like an E-Type- At Last." It was supposed to be the new XK for 2007 but never saw the light of day.

But a few years later, here's what Ian Callum said on
April 21st 2011 at the NY Auto Show, when asked if he would
ever build a new E Type! (BTW, Keep in mind that the new XJ was introduced at
that show. )

''I would refuse," he said, ( to design a new E-Type) , "it had it's time and place. WHAT I WILL DO IS CREATE SOMETHING AS DRAMATIC AS THAT CAR WAS THEN and I think THE XJ ACHIEVES THAT!''........Does anyone anywhere,
agree that the XJ is as dramatic as the E was then, or now!

Mr.Callum, in this same session, becomes I feel, totally dismissive and rather insulting as he then says the following statement when commenting on the final shape of the E..... He said, "The car" (E) "was ALMOST CREATED AS A BY PRODUCT,
dictated ONLY by MINIMUM BODYWORK ENCAPSULATING MAXIMUM
PERFORMANCE''....... I find those words totally denigrating and
belittling to the skills of Malcolm Sayer, the world renowned genius creator of the E.

I have a suspicion that Mr. Callum came up with his "refusal to do a new E-Type" line and his verbal dismissal of the E design, after he was unable to convince Marketing that Jaguar should create a true 21st century E design that would excite all the visual and emotional senses and create a world sensation as the original did in 1961,and still does today!

Jaguar has now shown Callums and Marketings F to the world and in their collective minds they now obviously believe the F is as dramatic as the E was when it was introduced!....... Does anyone believe that is true!....As much as they all say the Emperor has clothes, I don't think he does!

And then for Mr. Tata....... It is truly disappointing that your designers and marketers have failed you and Jaguar, and the whole world that recognizes the E-Type as the most beautiful car ever made! These people must have their collective heads in the sand to miss out on this huge design and marketing opportunity.

They together created a car that is stylistically repetitive, not unique, with no Jaguar dna nor anything stylistically as sensational as a new E-Type could be!

Mr. Tata, You are missing one of the biggest opportunities available to you and your company! Please find design and marketing leaders that truly believe in the huge legacy that you own, the MOST beautiful car ever made, find people who will enthusiastically design a new E-Type for this century!

Edited on 2013-05-27 22:55:11

Edited on 2013-05-27 22:48:30

Miklos, Thanks, Look at the doors and rocker molding they are almost exact..
How long has the scion been out?
The rear is almost exact if you stretch out the scion tail lights.
Is it just me?
Also if someone posts the nissan gtr front nose , the front is almost a twin.
Yep, Im out on this deal, want the xf wagon though......
GTJOEY1314
Just noticed its even the same 5 spoke wheels......

Image 4

Image 3

Image 3

Image

Image

WHOLLY C@#$ I just went to the scion web site, I didnt even know this car existed, Hey you can buy their FTYPE for around 23 grand, take a look..........
Sad to say Im not joking, look at the tail lights and front nose too....
ouch
GTJOEY1314

I just went to the scion web site, I didnt even know this car existed, Hey you can buy their FTYPE for around 23 grand, take a look..........
Sad to say Im not joking, look at the tail lights and front nose too....
ouch
GTJOEY1314

WHOLLY C@#$ I just went to the scion web site, I didnt even know this car existed, Hey you can buy their FTYPE for around 23 grand, take a look..........
Sad to say Im not joking, look at the tail lights and front nose too....
ouch
GTJOEY1314

Edited on 2013-05-26 15:31:21

Edited on 2013-05-26 11:10:29

On the way home from church this morning , I thought I saw a new ftype from behind, It was that new, Hyundia coupe!
If some one can post the rear of the new Hyundia couple little sports car, there sure is a LARGE resemblense.
Also the front looks just like the NISSAN GTR.
If someone can post pics you would see what I mean.....
GTJOEY1314
P.S I looked up the Hyundia is 23 grand..........coupe.
Correction, my kid says the car with the back of the ftype was a scion?
I think thats what it was.......

Peter I enjoyed reading your profile in the Jaguar Journal. Your introduction to the E-type sounds a bit similar to mine. On my 5th birthday they gave me a blue Motorific battery powered E-type coupe. From then on it was always my favorite car and knew that one day I would have one. I also love the Mk X / 420G. I was at the Keels and Wheels show here in Houston a few weeks ago and spent a lot of time that day looking at those wonderful doors on a 420G that was there. I also love the roof line on them and think they are the best looking sedan ever. If I ever get more garage space I think I will try to get one

David Barnes
68 E-type FHC

You make several good points, what can I say? I nearly fainted when I saw the price of the latest XJ when it came out, but then if there are areas that hard quantitative research should guide them, I guess comparative pricing is one of them. Sad to say, I am not the market. I may fit the demographic somewhat but not the price point...

I dont buy the appeal to the younger people either. When you market a 2 seat car that is going to cost just shy of 100 grand there are no young buyers. look at the 911, or the SL's, or the R8 or any other 2 seater, its always old guys. I am an old guy in my 50's. I AM the market, I can justify a two seat car and afford it, but this one isnt it. if the F type had any other manufacturers logo on it I wouldnt even give it a second look.

The younger people that can afford this car will buy a 4 door BMW, Merc, or Audi. thats where they are in life, they want the room for the kids they are still dragging around. sure there are exceptions. but sorry , this car is targeted for us, the old guys.

calling it an F type is comical too, more marketing hype to trick people into thinking they are buying jaguar heritage, show a few pictures of the designer poking around and old E type and presto. they think they are buying into a legacy, yet the car has none of the looks or feel or a C type, D type OR E-type.

as for the lyonheart or the eagle speedster, they are so far over the top they dont count either.

Bob

I like the Lyonheart styling as much as the next man but it's easy to generate computer graphics. Even making a car looking like that is easier from 'outside' (if one ever appears, even in mock-up form) because you can never be accused of being backward-looking or lacking in ideas. The whole point of a pastiche is to copy, but look at the panning Jaguar got with successive XJ iterations for being old-fashioned and doing nothing fresh - relying on past glories if you will.

To me, the first of the new look - the XF - was gorgeous and streets ahead of the S-type which never looked 'right' although the final version looked OK when it sharpened up and lost some of its droopy look. The XF was lauded from all quarters and sold/sells well and the new XK was a logical next step for the original XK8, which is a very nice car but more Series 3 than Series 1 in E-type terms.

So the XF and XK hit it off and the XJ came along to grow the new family look. The puctures looked a little odd at the back but in the metal the car is very nice and when one passes you there is no mistaking it, which is just as well because I can't tell Audis from Mercs from Hyundais these days. So they get panned for being old-fashioned then they get panned for being different...

When I was sometimes responsible for developing themes and logos for medical communication campaigns I always took the artist's scamps and scribbles along as well as the finished options so they could see how we got there. Unlike the medical writing which was mostly either wrong or right, design stuff was purely subjective, even if based on logic initially, so every reaction was valid - even that of the lowliest client personnel, because style is emotional not objective. There are bound to be pros and antis and in our age group we are more likely to be the latter because we're largely immersed in the products of a purer age, before bureaucrats got involved in setting parameters I suspect the LH will never meet.

Yes, with a cleaned and polished Retrospectoscope, it might have been possible to carry forward slightly more purebred Jaguar DNA but I see nothi g of the classic Merc lines in their squashed-beetle sedans today. We'd better get used to things not being like they used to be, we've had 30-40 years practise. I doubt you'll be able to buy a mainstream stick shift in ten tears time and light open glasshouses with good 360-degree visibility are ancient history, thanks to roll-over requirements - never mind the motorcyclists being wiped out like bugs because nobody can see past the humungous A and C pillar blind spots. The future is here and I hope Jaguar can carve themselves a slice of the action and we ought to be in the vanguard of support, even though se're free to mutter to each other here and there's no harm in being a 'critical friend' to our favorite car brand. Just so long as the friend bit is greater than the critical bit.

Edited on 2013-05-25 12:25:30

Edited on 2013-05-25 12:23:45

Dave/Joseph, BINGO!, I just looked at the pricing sheet for the v6 and v8.
No matter how you cut it its a $100,000.00 car.
BMW Z.
MIATA
MINI COOPER
PORSCHE BOXTER
All have a niche and under 50 grand by a long shot.
The premise of this car was to sell an AFFORDABLE sports car, so young people would buy in , start a family one day then move up the xf/xj range, with a land rover along the way.
At the base car with decent features your at 80 grand without tax and a SOFT TOP ROOF.
BMW and Mini have hard top electric roofs and the cars are 30 grand less.........get the picture.
My other beef, wheres the coupe!
Thats what got me going, it was to be under 50 grand, remember, with the hatch to open like an ETYPE.
At least it could have been a runner.......
Sorry but its not cutting it by a long shot.
As said before Porsche sells EVERY 911 it makes, Mini and BMW as well.
Finally , Nothing comes near the ASTON MARTIN, anyone who knows all or nothing about cars.......Once one drives by EVERYONE turns around.
GTJOEY1314
TATA give me 6 months and Ill have a car for you......

IMHO the F-type rear styling is decent. The front however is a mishmash of current styling cues and lacks Jaguar presonality.

There's a market for what the E-type was when introduced; part sportscar, part GT, with revolutionary styling & performance at a reasonable price. Jaguar just doesn't have the vision and ability to make it, but then guys like Sir William and Malcom Sayer come together once every 50 years.

At risk of sounding like an old fud, the logic of paying extra for onboard electronics that are out of date in 1-2 yrs escapes me . I'm not sold on the idea that this is needed to appeal to younger buyers. Everything they need's available on their smartphone except a standardized real-time OBD-II style health monitoring interface. At some point the amount of info distracting the driver has got to be restricted via safety legislation.

Retro-styled Mustangs and Camaros seem to appeal across age spectrum. BMW Mini's ultimate proof that throw back styling can succeed big time. I agree with Joe L. Jagaur missed the boat.

I always thought the genius of Jaguar (and Aston Martin) styling was that it was bold but still understated and not busy. I know the stylists do not have the free hand they did in the 50'-70's but Aston has been able to maintain that philosophy and so had Jaguar until the latest round of designs. I have heard many younger folks still say they consider the E-type one of the best looking if not the most beautiful car ever. Still seems odd to me with Jaguar finally building the follow up that it does not share more of the E-type styling queues. Don't get me wrong, I think the F-type is a decent looking car but so far does not seem to be creating near the buzz as the XK-120 or E-type did in their day. If Jaguar was building anything similar to the Lyonheart or the 2002 F-type I think the story would be different. As the article said in the Jaguar Journal......Porsche seems to still be doing good with their 911 styling.... so why Jaguar has departed so far from their styling heritage has me confused.

David Barnes
68 E-type FHC

Edited on 2013-05-25 7:38:07

Peter/Glynn, Heres the problem, style is style, something gorgeous is something gorgeous.
Sinatra records will go on forever....
An etype will be restored somewhere forever.
When the 1995 xj6 exploded on the scene, It was a smash in all forms .
Style is style.
Jag is selling less today than Lyons last years in the early 80's.
They are 1000 percent better built BUT HAVE NO STYLE........
As for the excuse of a younger generation...IMO
Under the age of 40 in America, they dont work, get married, buy houses, there standards of living are so LOW, they should not be considered in this market , sad to say.
Ford constantly takes focus groups under 40 and markets cars with digital dash's ,insync and all the rest, the cars come out to 50 grand for a taurus and then the kids parents buys them a Honda..............
Notice how I said the kid doesnt buy the car.......
Off track...
Lets cut to the chase, Its ugly..
The old FTYPE concept from 2002? would have sold MILLIONS!
Make it a low budget base hot rod, then the kids AND I will return...
My family and I still own new xk/xj and even x types, but lately they are BORING......
Hope the new xf wagon comes in the states, I will buy it in a minute!
GTJOEY1314

Does it bother anyone that while some dream of Jaguar building the LH there are no test drives of the car? As far as I can determine there are no actual cars! All of the hype is in computer generated images. The car in the images is expected to be delivered in the six figure area half way to the seven figure mark. There is no attempt to sell to the US at this time--read it will not comply with all of the regulations! Peter is right that the F is marketed at a different market--a market that JCNA MUST embrace if we wish to continue to grow. The comments on here and elsewhere seem to suggest that Mr. Callum is allowed to determine ALL shapes etc. on new models. Nothing could be further from the truth. While his concepts start the process the engineers and marketing folks also "ADD" to the design. That is on top of all of the regulations that determine a lot of the final design. I think final comments on tha LH should be reserved until there is an actual car that has been developed for the NA market. One thing for sure I want to see how they comply with crash requirements and keep the look they have now. Otherwise we each should just get some software and have a go at our own designs.

Edited on 2013-05-24 22:30:33

Peter - your interpretation is spot on. The latest Jaguar designs (from the XF on) are attempting to reach a new and younger audience. There are some parallels with Harley-Davidson, which has found that its clientele is increasingly ageing (and therefore decreasing in size), and has had the seemingly impossible task of having to reinvent itself without losing its loyal customer base. It has done this through new color & graphics schemes, and by adding a few more outrageous hand-built models through its Special Vehicles Operations. It has been careful though not to upset the traditional customer base. Lamentably, Jaguar has decided to reject much of its heritage in terms of its design language, and go for its rivals by the throat with styling clearly intended to compete directly with Lexus and the like. While, as a designer, I can appreciate the marketing logic, along with Ian Callum's contemporary vision, as a long-time Jaguar enthusiast, I feel that could have been achieved without throwing out all the old values. I'm sure the latest models are improvements in every way, but I wouldn't consider buying one. Reading the other comments in this thread, it looks like I'm not the only one. Jaguar's hope for the future is clearly based in appealing to new customers. But by alienating its old ones, I feel the company is making a risky gamble that a good design/product planning/marketing team could have handled better.

I would think that if people like us thought the design was superb, it would be the wrong design. The F-type is not aimed at us but a different demographic with very different tastes. As to whether it does actually appeal to enough younger buyers to succeed in the market - well that remains to be seen but I hope it does well...

I always thought the BMW Z8 looked more like a modern interpretation of the e-type than the modern jags do. so it might not have been bad for him to take ideas from the Germans had he used cues from the Z8, lengthen the wheelbase, change the grill.. its closer to an F type than the new F type. thats just my feeling. the new F may be a nice car, but it doesnt do much for me in the looks department. I was hoping for more of a WOW factor than this.
and thats just my two cents.

Bob

You sure are right about that. That Lyonheart car is really what the F-type should look like. I am not an Ian Callum fan. On the XK and XJ he replaced very nice looking cars with new models that do not look as good. His lines do not have the proper front to rear flow that Jaguars are supposed to have. The rear end on XJ, XF and now the F-type are all too tall and not very good at all. He really should be taking more styling cues from William Lyons and Malcolm Sayer instead of the Japanese and Germans

David Barnes
68 E-type FHC